So, if we are really sentient beings able to control ourselves and our surroundings: how do we fundementally control neurons firing? Other neurons telling them to fire? What starts off the thought process of wanting to extend your arm? Since we're essentially chemicals and electricity, how does one lot govern the next? Yes, I've been watching Waking Life. Fantastic movie. Just wondering everyone's thoughts
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Neurons are there from birth? As fetuses we are given signals from our mother's body to breathe/have heart beat/make new neutrons to fire. That's my made up on the spot idea, because I don't really think the neurons are a good enough answer, it's like having a test in math where the question is 2x+4=y and y=3x+1 and then you solve 2x+4=3x+1 and then stop. It's a true equation, but you haven't solved for x or y. In this case x=what tells neutrons to fire and y=the ever present why? Why do the initial ones do so? I think to find he answer we must determine what causes our cells to make decisions. What makes the nucleus decide to split into two? What tells the lysosome to commit cell suicide? What makes the transport proteins decide what to let in? How does the Golgi complex know where to send proteins? Answer those and then determine how we think is what I say.
WOW!!! How's that for food for thought?! Similiarly, isn't it amazing how we can talk to ourselves in our own head?! The human brain, or rather just about any brain for that matter, is truly amazing and miraculous. I saw an interesting TV program where around 25 000 rat brain cells were connected to a computer via a number of electrodes and somehow learnt to fly a flight simulator, very well in fact! What amazes me is how these cells can figure out that crashing is bad. Absolutely amazing, Sputnik
Synergy. What makes a car a car? Is the bolt that holds two components together a car? No, it's merely a bolt. But but all these nuts, bolts and components together and you have a car. Something that can achieve a lot greater potential than just the separate sum of the bits of metal and leather. Same with a human. Is a neuron human? No, but put a bunch of neurons and cells together in an exacting manner and you have something much greater. Also, have you ever thought that our active thought process may in fact not be our sentient thoughts. And that we may have any thought layer/process before it? Maybe the subconscious is in fact the mind that is in control? And the act of thinking that we are about control a limb is only secondary to the actual process of doing it? There is a lot that we don't know to be able to answer this type of question scientifically. Philosophically however, this has always been one
Well firstly, we are sentient maybe. Free will is an illusion though. I've been saying this for several years now and getting laughed at, some recent research into a paedophile whos paedophillic tendencies dissapeared once a tumour that was putting pressure on his brain was removed are backing me up on free will being illusory(think that's a word) though. As for control of neurons, we don't. Humans are born with the inate ability to move their body, I guess it's subconcious in the literal meaning of the word. We simply communicate to a lower part of our brain that we want to move our arm and it takes care of the rest. The choice to move isn't even a very high level operation. Control is also an illusion. We are almost completely without control over both ourselves and our surroundings. Basicly I think we aren't free living choosing beings as we believe. We have the illusion of choice because we fail to yet understand the things that choose for us. We are still just machines though, ones that learn and react and choose based upon genes and experiences. Nothing more. Great topic, if a little loose. Think I've given a relevent ramble here, but apoligies if not.
Ofcourse there is no such thing as absolute free will; that sort of free will can be argued and debated till the cows come home. Free will in this sense comes within a framework. And within that framework we do have free will. We just need to define the framework.
See I don't even agree there. I would argue that every action we do is predetermined. Granted I havn't learned quantuum yet(in the process of doing so) so that I guess could screw up my entire theory but untill I have it hasn't D). Until then, I feel we are machines, just like AI's who learn. Some of our actions are determined by the code we were born with, some by the experiences we have had. Most by both. If we can know all the experiences and all the genes(code they were born with) then we can know exactly what an entity will do in a specific situation. Free will is a complete delusion which gives puporse and a feeling of meaning to our lives. There is no good reason I can see to suggest we are any more free than a bee or giraffe. We think at a higher level granted, but we don't have this magic free will that people think we do.
But are our actions actually recorded happenings of what our brain is seeing? Like we think we're doing something but actually we merely SEE our body doing it and accept it as our own doing? No "free" will, merely watching our bodies play out our lives how those neurons decide to interact which each other and the other bodies they percieve. "We" are just by-product vouyers, obseving from a first person: it answers things deja vous and people who describe they are aware of seeing themselves do something but have no ability to control it. It describes instinct too. We need this perception in order to stimulate our body into continuing: sex, food, feeling, thought etc I disagree it's predetermined: where's the evidence? Everything just applys to the laws of chaos and entropy, where interactions create ripples. Quantum theory relies on a set framework too: where electrons are destined to exist in certain states according to the laws of physics, and where subatomics scorn the laws of macrophysics for their own irrational behaviour. But generally, in a system big enough, entropy and chaos will be the underlying factors that will govern the propigating interactions of everything. Why does my genetic material, merely As, Ts, Gs and Cs "tell" me what to do. By that argument everytime I touch someone else I should be able to be influenced by their genetic pre-disposition too. Spec: go buy waking life on DVD, you'll love it
But of course. Bertrand Russel did an excellent book that covered this, entitled "The problems of philosophy" which is well worth a read because I'll no doubt maul his ideas. In it though, he demonstrated how we don't actually see, we receive sense data which we find mostly to correlate with other sense data. We don't actually know that all humans aren't 12 foot tall tenticled monsters and our brains aren't just tricking us into thinking we're short and humanoid. We recieve sense data that our brain interprets in a specific way, there could easily be a great difference between the real world and the sense world we recieve. We're viewing the world through lenses, and we just have to hope or assume or believe that they aren't tainting the truth. I don't agree that we're only seeing our bodies doing it, we feel we have power there. It's just that we are part of our personalities, we cannot understand or interpret beyond that or without that(just as we cannot see without eyes). I'd say we're not vouyers; that implies a level of disconectedness and a clarity which we lack. We're stuck inside the illusion and inside the lack of choice. I guess our entire awareness is trapped within that level. Which makes this damn confusing Not pre-determined in the religious sense. Not drawn up or planned, but the die have been cast type thing. The first choice set of a domnio effect(christians would call that original sin I guess). Everything after that was a natural reaction to that choice and it still is. I have a feeling things like chaos and quantuum are going to destroy a lot of the beliefs I've put forward here so far tonight. But it's great to explore all this. edits to respond to edits: This is my fear(or maybe not fear, thought perhaps just). If this is the case then from what I understand of chaos and quantuum I'm screwed and totaly wrong. The inaccuacies inherant in any calculations on the system(sytem being the universe) would render any pre-determined stuff even if it were the case useless. What good is everything being already worked out if we can't predict how things are going to go because quarks keep screwing around, type thing. Not sure I understand why you say that. What I was meaning to convey was that every action we perform is done because of who we are and who we are is determined totaly(ignore quantum because it's annoying) by either our life(experiences and thoughts) or what we were born with, our genes. My theory being that these two things completely decide what we will do in the future and that given enough ability to compute we could predict actions based upon enough details from a system(universe). Quantum might break this though, if I end up believing in it.
There are a lot of things that science can't explain. If you accept that free will is incompatible with a deterministic theory of physics, it's still difficult to explain how are we perceiving these words, or even having these thoughts? Being conscious in this way seems to have a metaphysical quality - and yet our brain apparently consists entirely of physical matter. Whether quantum physics can resolve this conflict is yet to be seen, but at the larger, macro level of cellular activity (at least in principle), conventional physics must be used for predictions. Of course, a unification of physics would provide a lot of insight here If we accept that all of our actions are predetermined, then it has some interesting consequences. Firstly, our entire system of justice and moral intuition is built on the idea that we have free will. If you commit a crime, you can be arrested and tried because this has been done of your own free will. However, if it wasn't, then what happens? If all of our actions are predetermined, a rapist is no more responsible for a horrific crime than you are for logging on to read this post. What's really interesting is that a determinist (as the above position is referred to) has to accept that their opinion on the matter was predetermined from the very moment of the Universe's inception. They must accept that their opinions are merely the effects of a cause over which they have no control.
Yes, true. How do you know when someone else see's something red that they are experiencing the same colour as you? Because colour inspires a feeling as well as a stimulous to the retinal cells in the eye. Like how a colourblind person will never experience this and wouldn't know any different until they are told otherwise, this, of course is an extreme example. But we feel we have the power because it stimulates our bodies to continue. If you lack stimulous to do something you dont do it, that's why we feel hungry, thirsty, tired, sexual frustration etc. We pander to this mass of molecules needs whether we are concious of it or not. When I got hit by a car I saw it happening, then the actual moment of impact is lost, but then I regained conciousness as I flew through the air but I couldn't move myself nor could I see. I was just aware that my concious state has regained receiving information from my body which obviously hadnt stopped. Then I hit the ground hard, it hurt and I could move again. Of course, there was absoutely NO way for you to know this and have this experience, yet my translation through a common language to you will (possibly) make you think about something a little differently, but was I destined to have this conversation two years after the event or is it a natural rippling of event. No doubt I will tell others in the future, maybe even find someone of similar experience. You've got to read about Chaos because it's mind boggling. If you understand entropy, humans are essentially entropic entities acting anti-entropically. We crave order in our minds, but why?? Another thing: You say you FEAR it, so you try to create (aware or not) a reality in which you can minimise your fears so you minimise your stress. This is also why people enjoy comfort in others and religion etcetc, because it beings the body into a lower state of entropy and relaxation. Predictions are always about minimising the statistics. Statistics govern how things happen: how likely am I to do something, how like is an electron to spin one way or the other given a certain situation etc Genetic Code is SIMPLY fundementally just CHEMICALS. They are FOUR different chemicals "written" in a certain way that generate "who I am". If these chemicals written in such a way contain predisposed memories, then why doesn't injecting myself with replicas of them cause me to see into the memories of others or spiral out of control (it'll never happen, we have great enzymatic processes to kill all foriegn DNA). If I eat a cow, why does that suddenly turn from living being with inate instincts into chemical food?? What changed in the process of killing the animal and me consuming it? There are lots of different things that sceince can't explain yet Hitman: precicely! We are shaped by our surroundings and interactions, who you meet and talk to. By having this very conversation and reading your opinions I am changing who I am and my perceptions which will have consequences in the future. It's as much predetermed effects as it is chaotic and essentially random: both are just you passing through.
Same result though innit? Whether you call it destiny or the natural ripple effect, it results in you telling people and them thinking differently about something etc. etc. I think I see what you mean here. What I was meaning though is our brains are in a specific configuration when we're born and part of the entire configuration of our body(much of it in fact) is unique to us because we inherited it from our two parents. Unless you count all people as totaly equal when born in every respect which I think seems wrong then genes obviously have a part to play in how people are in life. Someone more predisposed to anger or feeling pain or emotional troubles will respond differently to given situations than someone who is none of those things. Heh, I must be communicating very poorly tonight, but that's basicly what I've been trying to say - I havn't really bothered tending to whether it would all be "predetermined" or just chaotic ripple or whatever you want to call it. Essentially it means that the world is utterly predictable(at least unless quantums stupid rules break that) and given a powerfull enough computer or computational device(a god perhaps) we could know the future. Think I just found yet another reason not to believe in time
Wow, I agree with predetermined. It's always been a theory of mine that if you could in some way determine exactly how a person will react to things, and find this about everyone you can tell the future for any amount of 'time' to come.. not that I believe time is the best word so much as distance along to axis of time, but I won't go into that
All said and done, I agree and can understand where you are going with this but doesn't that assume that the world is linked intrinsically with us humans? If a hypothetical conversation between two people was destined/predetermined to occur, what would be the effect of, hurricane Katrina in the area? or mechanical failure on a plane one of them on? or a electric storm that strikes someone down.
Neurons fire when certain neurotransmitters diffuse accross the synaptic cleft (I believe it's called), and bind with receptors. These trigger a depolarization accross the neuron and thus, a message is transmitted. However, I think what you're asking is how a thought, say, I think of dropping a pen, that my hand actually lets go and drops it. Such is a question of mind-body dualism. I believe many philosophers have tried to tackle this. Descartes went to say something about our minds residing in the pineal gland and it controlling our bodies. However, it's not that convincing. Besides, how does an immaterial thing which is seemingly without space or dimenstion - our mind - operate in this 3d world where there are objects. A theory can be that everything we understand, see, and do, is nothing but our own imagination, so nothing exists outside of ourselves. Such is solipsism. I hope you enjoy being alone. Another way to approach this, is how a bundle of neurons (well, billions) put together, makes us think. How do we have such complex thoughts if we're just a bunch of neurotransmitters depolarizing each other. It's interesting, but something I try to avoid thinking about.
I can give you a whole explanation on this, but it would be a long post, and I have to go out now. I'll come back to this. Meanwhile think of emergence and chaos theory.
The effect would not stop the conversation from happening because if such a disaster were to occur, it wasn't going to happen in the first place. In a purely deterministic view, there should be no distinction between natural events and those of people, because both represent nothing more than certain combinations of atoms and forces conspiring to bring about a particular (predetermined) conclusion according to the principle of causality.
