View Single Post
Old 28th Nov 2010, 15:35   #125
AstralWanderer
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 749
AstralWanderer has yet to learn the way of the DremelAstralWanderer has yet to learn the way of the DremelAstralWanderer has yet to learn the way of the DremelAstralWanderer has yet to learn the way of the Dremel
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
Please don't get me wrong. I do actually trust you when you say you don't pirate games.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
But at the same time you are not helping your own position when you say you don't do it, then follow on, within the same debate, to provide unnecessary examples and hyperlinks of file-sharing or piracy benefits, and how the software industry has grown massively since a particular previous generation of piracy.
What, pointing out the truth (albeit one you seem uncomfortable with) somehow makes me a bad person? Unauthorised copying is not a black-and-white good-or-evil issue as you seem to believe - there have been many past cases of content creators benefitting from it (as cost-free advertising) ranging from musicians who grew from bootleg records to some of the indie developers I noted above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
Don't you realize you are feeding the pirates.
No, I neither realise nor accept it. People who want something that is non-free should pay for it - that is my view. However if someone makes a copy to try out prior to purchase (and is honourable enough to delete it quickly if they decide against it) or if someone genuinely cannot buy (not enough money, no access to a credit card or - in this crazy world of geographical licensing - lives somewhere where the product is not sold at any price) then their copying does no harm.

As for the comments made by others here regarding people's ability to afford $1,000+ PCs, for young users it will be their parents who purchased the PC (for "education", right?) who may then be reluctant to shell out more than a token for games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
This is why when I speak out, I group all of you guys, including the pirates, together. In my opinion, you are all, directly or indirectly, a part of the problem of piracy. All feeding off of each other.
Fine - then I can, with no guilty conscience, lump your posts together with the attention-starved trolls, pro-corporate shills and I-always-follow-the-law-except-when-I-choose-not-to hypocrites that discussions of this ilk seem to attract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
But let's just say, for argument's sake, that there is a one in a million chance that I am wrong about saying piracy is stealing. Why is it so incredibly important for you to prove that wrong? What do you really have to gain from this? I'm not implying that you, sir, are a pirate. I'm just saying you sound like them. You are encouraging them even though that may not be your true intention.
Because it is a different offense pure and simple. Confusing unauthorised copying and theft is akin to confusing rape and assault - they have different effects and I could argue that you are trivialising the victims of theft by equating it with copying, just as you are arguing that I am trivialising copying by distinguishing it from theft.

Secondly there are cases where a copy may be unauthorised *in the eyes of the law* yet still morally legitimate - for example someone making a backup copy of games they have purchased. Section 50A of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 does address this (an addition made by The Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992), but the wording (specifically the "which it is necessary" provision) seems to make this far from an absolute right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
1) If that pirate copy is not owned by the game publisher / developer/ copyright owner, then who actually does legally own it?
I am sure that by now, in this debate, we both agree that the pirate has created that copy dishonestly and illegally. Right?
Illegally yes. Dishonesty however involves deceit or deception, neither of which plays a role here (unless the person copying tried to sell on those copies as legitimate).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
So, he has acquired that copy illegally. Meaning, he has violated the copyright law. So, legally speaking, does he own it? Of course, he may own it in the sense that it is installed on his PC, but does he legally own it?
"Possession is nine-tenths of the law...". More specifically, consider counterfeit goods - if you make a facsimile Gucci handbag, no-one is going to argue that it isn't yours to start with. However since it breaches Gucci's copyrights, they could apply for it to be seized from you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tron View Post
If you think he owns it legally, then you have got to be delusional.
If he didn't own it legally, then there would be no need for the seizure provision in Section 100 of the act. That this section exists at all shows your argument to be incorrect as far as UK law is concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
And what about the poor developer that still wants a salary at the end of the month? You know the one that pirates put out of business due to bad sales...
I would sympathise completely with developers who sink so much time and effort in only to feel that they get an insufficient return. But I would also point out that there are many other reasons for them getting shafted aside from the copying angle:
  • The ruthless discounting of any game at retail after a couple of months (as an example, I was able to purchase the deluxe edition of TitanQuest for just 7 seven months after release). This creates the almost impossible hurdle that games have to recoup their development costs within just a couple of months before they hit the bargain bin.
  • Competition - not only does the PC have the largest software base with dozens of new games coming out every month (and many classic oldies available from sites like GOG), but it also has an unrivaled collection of freeware and modifications for older games. Since even the most dedicated here has limits on the time they can spend gaming, it should be clear that new game purchases are very much an option, not a necessity.
  • Bugs, bugs, bugs! It has become a mantra for many that games aren't playable until after the first (or even second) patch - since waiting can get you a cheaper price as well as a better gaming experience, what sense does it make to buy at release?
  • DRM - If a game is tied to the publisher's ability to maintain verification servers or issue new keys for every installation onto a new PC, then the prudent user will either boycott it or buy-and-download to get a "legal" DRM-free version.
DRM-free digital distribution can ease many of these problems, allowing prices to be maintained for longer (case in point, the fantasy wargame Dominions 3 is still being sold for US$54.95 (with a November discount) despite being a 4-year old game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
Also, the working conditions are tough for game devs. Constant crunch times, 60+ hour weeks, working weekends etc... The guys doing it are doing it cause they love it not for any other reason...
Sadly, it's because so many feel that way that lends to easy exploitation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
The problem isnt with the binman, who cant afford a game (but magically had enough cash for a console/gaming PC :? ) but with joe entitled that will spend $1000 on a GTX480 SLI setup but OMG WOAH $60 for a game: "game dev be tripping yo, I'z be stealin that stiz".
I did mention above the example of a teenager able to persuade their parents to fork out for a PC (for education, honest!) who faces a much harder time asking them to pay anything like a similar amount for games. How great a portion of unauthorised downloads would this account for? Given the maturity of the comments made on torrent review threads I would suggest 30-50%. Now this may represent a loss now - but many of those too young to buy currently will mature and become more responsible consumers when they start earning their own income - that was the case for me (when I started university I was able to purchase games and have done so ever since).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
The worst part is running into guys that downloaded the game before released and now feel special that they got to play it before everyone else, or the morons that pride themselves on (and brag about) how much money they saved by pirating.
Look at it this way - if they're such morons, would you really want them as customers? They'd then be entitled to eat up what profits you make with dumb support calls, trolling posts in official forums or abusive behaviour in online play. As long as you can identify them as illegitimate, you can instead enjoy telling them to go forth and multiply...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
Modern Warfare 2 Pirate Stats (and they wonder why it sold so poorly on PC) - http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10422892-17.html
According to that article, it sold 6 million (an incredibly high number, considering the original Witcher sold 1 million) while being downloaded 4 million times. That's a 40% unauthorised copying rate, which given that most games seem to have 80-90% levels, seems astoundingly good. And a lot better than what that douche deserves in my view...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
Look at Dragon Age, a great success of a game, targeted primarily at PC gamers, but now since the game sales were massively higher on consoles, the sequeul is getting consolized.
Hmm...I thought the original was consolized to some extent given the UI compromises compared to the likes of Neverwinter Nights. However I'll probably skip on the sequel (and for the record, I boycotted the DLC due to its online activation requirement).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldon View Post
Crysis was played by pretty much every gamer out there and yet had abysmal sales. Its the PC performance benchmark FFS, hyped into oblivion and yet barely sold any copies even tho everyone I knew was playing it as soon as it launch, no one i know bought it... Now crysis 2 is multiplatform? I wonder why?
Well I bought Crysis (boycotted Warhead due to, sigh, DRM), though a couple of years after its release. It was a rare example of a game that wasn't deeply discounted, which suggests strong sales performance - while they started poorly, Crytek did reach the million sale mark (to be expected, considering the pre-release publicity was about how you would need to buy a new PC to run it). Since that means Crysis sold at the same level as The Witcher, maybe it's Crytek's expectations that should be criticised?
AstralWanderer is offline   Reply With Quote