News US watches UK RFID Numberplate Trial

[GreatOldOne]

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/08/09/RFID_Plates/

[Henchman:crg]

It's all about speeding and making revenue for the government.

The question that should be asked is:
"Has car technology increased enough in terms of safety to allow faster speeds on the Motorways?"

Maybe with this technology, people can be fined for driving too close, rather than driving too fast.
Afterall, the accident is caused by not being able to avoid it, so not being so close surely makes driving safer?
I admit until the day a car drives itself, there will always be a speed that is too fast.

Hopefully, this technology could be used for proximity as well as speeding, and hopefully then we can see an increase in the speed limit on motorways at least.

[Da Dego]

I'm scared to think what this will become in the hands of governments that are scared, governing people that are scared. I don't like my liberties toyed with...

As with all technology, I think this could have some very great uses. Of course, I doubt many of those will be realized, particularly compared to all the bad ones...

[Lowsidex2]

If they bring that to this side of the pond, I'll be one of the ones taking a drill bit to where ever that sucker is hiding.

I'm not worried about them using it to fine me for tailgating, I worried about a receiver in every street corner of the city, logging when and where I go. I'm not a mobster, drug runner, or terrorist but I sure as hell don't want my habbits logged. Just another inch of freedom taken away.

[GreatOldOne]

Originally Posted by Lowsidex2

If they bring that to this side of the pond, I'll be one of the ones taking a drill bit to where ever that sucker is hiding.

Which would be the same as driving with out a license / number plate, if it's ever implemented. Isn't that a felony in the US? It is in the UK. And it'd alert the Fuzz straight away, when a patrol car trys to query the chip on your plate and they get no response.

Police, RFID, ACTION!

[MiNiMaL_FuSS]

1) actually despite popular beliefe speeding fines/tickets from speedtraps and camera do not goto the goverment. = The policeforce are entitled to take enough to cover the cost of the cameras themselves and the rest for some stupid reason ends up as part of Royal treasury - where it is no use to anybody but the royals themselves.

2) If people dont speed then why should camera concern them?

3) Tail-gateing is becoming an ever increasing danger and causes just as many deaths as speeding does, this technoology could be used to help combat tail-gateing which IS simply dangerous and bad driving (hence tail gating is now an arrestable offence in it's self - used to just be counted as warning for bad driving)

4) Seems fair enough to me, considering many high end cars have a similar device fitted to trace them incase they were stolen, i bet u'd see a very sharp decline in car theft with this.

[RFID]

I feel obliged to give my opinion on this topic;
I agree totally with Minimal Fuss.

However, there are implications for 'civil liberties' and this could be seen as an errosion of those. The arguement often played by governments is that 'if you aren't doing anything wrong, then there is nothing to worry about' although in many respects as to the law it is a somewhat strange way to look at things. Surely such devices should be aimed at those doing wrong as opposed to everyone to prevent them doing wrong - we do afterall have a right to misbehave, and by the social contract that is democracy we accept the punishment should be break the rules imposed by society.

I am not concerned too much about the implications of this 'study' as the government is currently mulling satalite tracking for all vehicles anyway. So it would infer that the purpose of the RFID is to monitor traffic movement at a low level.

Also if the RFID device is an 'active' device as opposed to passive then it requires some form of current to keep it active...wouldn't a passive device be better in terms of triangulation of signals to locate a device as to allow a person to 'ping' the tag???

Anyway, I wouldn't be too worried about it all - no doubt civil liberty groups will jump all over it and the government will be left with a bloody nose about it all.

Laters,
RFID

Always watching!

[Firehed]

It's got legitimate uses and ones that are less so. I see it primarily of catching people running red lights. Fair enough, but you get a slight issue about making a left (presumably right in the UK and other left-side-drive countries) turn after you're way out in the intersection so you don't sit there all day, just one round of lights, which is considered okay in most situations.

Overall I'd definately rather not happen, because the not-so-legit uses will quite quickly start and take away that many more rights.

[LAGMonkey]

The main problem with cars are that its not the technologys fault for causing accidents (99% of the time), its the pink squichy thing behind the wheel that is the dangerous thing. Accidents would come down if there wernt as many nuggets about who drive like mad men and woman. Introduce medicals into the driving licence and make it so that a driving lisence lasts 5 years (for example). The retest should be a minimum cost and it would make sure that all those who are on the roads are
A) physically fit enough to drive a car
B) fully capable of handeling a dangerous weapon which is also a handy means of transport.

The idea for the RFID is to impose a PAYG style of taxing. It would certainly lower the cost of petrol but then that is always going to rise with infation no matter what you do.

Oh....can anyone say 1 pound a liter

[Edenalig]

Originally Posted by LAGMonkey

Oh....can anyone say 1 pound a liter

Were about 4-6p away from that already Or 1-2p with optimax etc

[LAGMonkey]

yea, but do you see riots in the streets when the price of fuel rises by 4p per liter?!
Maybe we should take a leaf out of Yemen's book on that front.

(and those who dont know what im on about, Yemen had major roting when the price of their fuel went up to about 12p if i remember Linkey )

[brianpodskalny]

I for one would not mind having a chip in my plate.

i dont know why everyone is so paranoid about the government knowing whats going on. any of you guys have credit cards? granted they dont transmit data and all, but records are easy to trace.

chips in licence plates?
simply put, it would be an incredible tool in the hands of the police.

if you want to speed, go to the racetrack. if the fuzz catches you breaking the posted limits more often, ITS YOUR FAULT anyway, speeding is against the law, no matter how much of an inconvenience it is.

who knows if it will even be used to send you junk mail?

how bout this : police cars on patrol constantly scan the area they are in, and if a stolen car or child molester is in the immediate vicinity they computer alerts him, so he can DO HIS JOB, you know, keeping you safe. believe it or not, the police enforce laws for a reason, not just to give you somehting to rebel against.

public safety has a price, when you are done rebelling against licence plates, seatbelts, and homogonized milk, try moving somewhere without police. see how long it is until someone shoots you because they wanted your shoes. it doesnt matter to me who knows where i go, because it means nothing! and please dont start the whole eroding the civil liberities thing. its other peoples right to be safe!

this is not directed at anyone in particular, just my opinions. they may seem wrong to you, but thats why they are mine and not yours

[RFID]

I know this is a slight deviation from the topic at hand - but regarding the satelite PAYG system - wouldn't it be far far easier to kill road tax and insurance and put it all on the petrol instead - thus it a true pay as you go system - and even compensates for the class of vehicle you drive - as current proposals do not differentiate between a Land Rover 4x4 and an LPG or electric vehicle.

Thus with all ancillery costs placed on the petrol price - any driver would pay for insurence/road tax etc in a way proportional to their use...and would in one fail swoop stop people having to endure the pain in the **** situation when they get rear-ended by an uninsured driver, and also frees up traffic police from having to check peoples tax discs/insurence details.

Anyone else agree?

[Edit]

To the guy above my post...
...a person has a right to be critical when their is a possiblity of their rights being lessened, as you have a right to your opinions - what happens if all of a sudden your right to freedom of expression evaporates.

There is a careful balence between 'national security' in the wider sense and civil liberties - neither side of the scales can be allowed to become to heavily biased. But a balence must be sought between freedoms as an individual and protection for freedoms of people as a whole.

Whether you like it or not - people HAVE to be critical regarding civil liberties to prevent abuses - you try living somewhere where rights aren't protected and see how long it take you to get shot just because you have an opinion.

The door swings both ways my good man - just make sure it doesn't hit you on the way out when you finally sign over the last of your rights because 'the police have a job to do'!

[LoneArchon]

Well if they would want to track you then you must be a very high VIP. Because just think about the number of vehicals on the road and all of them have a RFID tag in them and then put them all on a map the map would be completely filled with little dots represteanting cars.

[Asphix]

First, I'd like to point out that accidents dont always happen due to people who are speeding/tailgaiting/driving aggressive. There are those who are unfit to drive. Their wits are nowhere in sight. They talk on the cellphone or simply dont have the required intelligence to handle a motor vehicle.

Just like those who drive fast and cause people to freak out, there are those who drive slow and cause people to freak out. Here in connecticut most highways have a speed limit of 65 miles per hour. When you join the highway, you need to get your speed up to 65mph to assume you are going fast enough to safely merge with the traffic. I can honestly say that on a DAILY basis, I go to get on the highway at some point during the day and the person in front of me decides they cant drive a car, and proceeds up the on-ramp at 40-45 miles per hour.

Do you have any idea how dangerous it is being stuck behind someone going 40mph merging onto a highway where people are going anywhere from 60-80 miles per hour? I cant tell you how many times Ive almost been rear-ended or run into the side rail due to not going an appropriate speed to join the traffic. This is also the reason why some people speed. After such an encounter I am so fumed at the guy in front that I speed while shaking my head, stomping my foot and screaming profanities in my head.

Now, on topic. I dont think this would be a bad idea at all. They would most likely (in the U.S. anyway.. not sure how eurpoe and the UK monitors their traffic) use a similar method to how they deter speeding currently. This chip would be in your plate and as they monitor your speed, along with the speed it would also report your lic. plate and other information on their HUD.

The whole idea of someone tracking you wherever you go is nonsense. If this technology is radio, they would need points placed incrementally to be able to monitor your movement effectively and in order to implement that simply within a city would cost more than it is worth. Especially when you place this in contrast to having it only report to them in their car as they're monitoring your speed. Just as effective (going by the US standard of monitoring speed and traffic) and will cost a LOT less.

I see this more as a way to expand upon what they have already and reduce the obsticles found in todays method. Currently when a cop sees you speeding, he has to chase you (or in europe I guess they sometimes have cameras?) In this instance, he will either catch you, or lose you. One option is to get your lic. plate number... essentially a form of identification. Now, my eyes are pretty good but I'll be damned if I can ever read a lic plate that is more than 50 feet away and moving fast. Factor in lighting conditions, weather, cleanliness of the vehicle (in other instances all the above plus camera angle, quality of camera, etc etc) and it can become very difficult. With this chip.. it would be like having eagle eyes all the time. It would make what they do right now more effective and efficient.

Or, what we have implemented in my town in Connecticut is the MDT's (moblie data terminals.. the laptops in the cars) is a software package that allows the officer in the vehicle to run the lic. plate manually himself. This still takes time and is near impossible to do while driving the vehicle. Imagine a system where that number pops up automatically at the press of a button! Makes sense to me!

Also when an officer runs your plate, currently he has to radio dispatch who then accesses a piece of software (here its a program called Collect) that links to a state (in the US) database in which all the registration information is. This process takes a small amount of time, but ties up the dispatchers from whats really important : emergency calls, dispatching units to appropriate locations and answering calls from the tax paying public. It gives the patrolling officers the data in the palm of their hands and cutting down on the whole process. Its the same thing they already do, but it streamlines it and makes it 10x more efficient.

Also, there is a lot of good to be seen by this. This will free up the law enforcement units from wasting time allowing them to focus on more important areas of their job. It would also make it easier for them to do their job. This streamlined efficiency this would bring about could potentially bring about reasons to lower taxes, or have less of a yearly increase. Yeah, thats not really likely.. but it will leave more money to be spent elsewhere in the budget. Beefing up partnership programs where police spend time with at risk kids, urging them toward a more stable path and serving as role models among many other things.

There is a lot to benefit from this as well as a lot of potential harm. As with anything of this nature, the extremes are horrible.. but somewhere in the middle is something that will benefit all. Being completely liberal and anti-law is harmful. Being completely conservative and all for control with little freedom/liberty is harmful. Somewhere in the middle is where its at. Its up to us to see the plans our govts have for the implementation of this technology and then decide where along that spectrum it lies, then adjust it accordingly until it provides protection and streamlines law enforcement methods without infringing our liberties in an overly negative manner.

[Piratetaco]

Originally Posted by LAGMonkey

The idea for the RFID is to impose a PAYG style of taxing. It would certainly lower the cost of petrol but then that is always going to rise with inflation no matter what you do.

Oh....can anyone say 1 pound a liter

bwhahahahahahaha


do you really think the government would take away such a huge part of their war fun.... i mean public spending money . come on bliar and his cronies have the motorist by the balls do you think that will ever change?

[Vigfus]

Originally Posted by LoneArchon

Well if they would want to track you then you must be a very high VIP. Because just think about the number of vehicals on the road and all of them have a RFID tag in them and then put them all on a map the map would be completely filled with little dots represteanting cars.

They would most probably use it as a "where was CarX all day, because mrX is a suspect of whatever" system and as such would only require logging, not constant display of where every car is at any given moment...

The arguments about RFIDs being used to spot people speeding is (moot i think, not sure about the wording). As this would most likeley need lots and lots of recievers spaced every kilometer or so. Atleast as i imagine it.

Anyway i dont want any logging of my whereabouts. So no RFID today, please.

Edit: So no RFID toady, please.

Edit: Added:

Originally Posted by Asphix

I see this more as a way to expand upon what they have already and reduce the obsticles found in todays method. Currently when a cop sees you speeding, he has to chase you (or in europe I guess they sometimes have cameras?) In this instance, he will either catch you, or lose you. One option is to get your lic. plate number... essentially a form of identification. Now, my eyes are pretty good but I'll be damned if I can ever read a lic plate that is more than 50 feet away and moving fast. Factor in lighting conditions, weather, cleanliness of the vehicle (in other instances all the above plus camera angle, quality of camera, etc etc) and it can become very difficult. With this chip.. it would be like having eagle eyes all the time. It would make what they do right now more effective and efficient.

This wouldn't stop the problem we have in sweden. We have some trafic-monitoring cameras at stretches of road where it's likeley people would speed. This dosn't work very well.
1. Most people know witch cameras are real (for cost efficency there are alot of dummies). And just push the pedal to the metal in between the real ones.
2. People just flip their sun-blocker-thingies down as to not let the camera see your face. This lets them claim someone else was using their car at the time.

The same could happen with RFID trackers.

[DLoney]

"He could be watching us far more closely than before, and Uncle Sam may just follow his lead"

Something like this would never be able to be implemented in the US. It would be a huge loss of privacy. I remember recently a debate going on; whither-or-not to install cameras at intersections in major city’s to catch speeders… Guess what? It did not pass because of the loss of privacy it would cause to drivers and pedestrians walking the streets… Now think about it, if laws can’t even pass to install cameras at stoplights (which I personally think is a good Idea) how would something like a RFID enabled plates pass.

[Edenalig]

Well with the UK turning into a branch of jessops and the possible inclusion of these tags non of us will be driving anyway, we will be banned for the slightest hint of speding

[LAGMonkey]

I personally have no problem with the government having information about me. What i DO have a problem with is the government having a LARGE all incompacing database on me which is in one single location. And givin the governmants track record on keeping information safe AND the fact that its looking like the national ID card will be the only way to tell if a person is who they say they are, im a bit nervious to say the least.

EDIT::
Right, for starters PIRATETACO The way government works is by giveing you somthing at the expence of somthing else. Petrol prices are a price that many many ppl notice one day by day. If the government can reduce them then ppl will thinkm that its a good thing. itll be a good thing to those ppl as theyll only have to pay once a year (for example) for the cost of their motering. one bill = only one thing to complain about instead of the two atm (fuel price, road tax)
and secondly i agree with ASPHIX at how the laws of the road are not their to be broken, but on a second had the speed limits should be reviewed on CERTAIN roads where the increase in speed will not cause any problems. My view of how the person behind the wheel is more dangerous than a gun still stands and the roads should be speed marked accoringly.