PGR3 developer lied about polygon count - bit-tech.net Forums

The_Pope · 14th Oct 2005, 05:54

Those naughty, naughty people - fancy lying to all their fans...

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/10...oly_count_lie/

Cadillac Ferd · 14th Oct 2005, 07:10

hahahahahahaha, that's hilarious.

XUntitled · 14th Oct 2005, 07:12

Nice way to introduce/write that article

The models really do look good... i'm not a console fan but still, maybe I should be.

BlueDemon · 14th Oct 2005, 07:19

The Project Gotham line of games has always looked impressive, as well on paper as on screen. I don't have an Xbox, and have always hoped that Bizarre Creations would release a PC version; it looks like this isn't going to happen any time soon... pity. It just might convince me to get an Xbox360.

The Need for Speed series has lost its appeal as far as I'm concerned. The greatest title was Porsche Unleashed / Porsche 2000 (NFS5). It was a fairly realistic sim, the first in the series where you could really FEEL the difference in car design, suspension, and performance as you evolved through the 40+ years of Porsche history. The "Underground" games are too much focused on visuals and "pimping", and lack the refreshing driving experience of previous incarnations. Also, another huge disappointment in NFSU are the tracks - or should I say track. It grows tired in about 10 minutes. Each track is no more than a slight variation of the previous one. Gone are the varied landscapes as we've come to expect from NFS. I wish EA would refocus this product line, and remember that the game should be about DRIVING, not simply about having the most pimped-out ride...

The_Pope · 14th Oct 2005, 07:32

I can't take the credit for the angle on this story - I just followed the lead of Ben @ Bizarre. But it made me smile, so I thought you guys might enjoy it too.

I'm a huge PGR fan. I too wasn't really a console fan XUntitled, but I have now shifted from PC only to a horses-for-course person: PC for FPS; Xbox for driving games.

I haven't played Underground BlueDemon but I know Tim uses it a lot for his graphics card benchmarking, so I'm sure he'll post a comment. The graphics on Xbox 360 for Most Wanted look amazing. I'm still likely to favour PGR3, since it should have the gameplay I fell in love with years ago with MSR on Dreamcast (same developer).

The comments from X05 have me a little worried, but since I won't be getting a 360 until after Christmas, I'll get plenty of warning of what the retail code is like.

This is a little ironic for me, considering I spent about £400 buying my first Xbox *almost* sight unseen. I was lucky enough to have the chance to play PGR1 in the NVIDIA meeting rooms at Comdex 2001. I was already a big fan of MSR, so the decision of whether to queue up that night at Midnight to buy an Xbox on day of release was down how PGR played.

As it turned out, I loved it, and thanks to my MSR experience, was pretty good even at the first attempt. Indeed, the NVIDIA staff milling about asked if I was one of the developers - none of them were any good at the game, whereas I just waltzed in and pwned from the green light

I know from 2 years of PGR2 on XBOX Live that there are many better players than I am, but I always like telling that story just the same :P

As you might imagine, I'm pretty excited about Gotham TV and the idea of tournament races being broadcast to an audience. Maybe I'll start a bit-tech league...

Cheese · 14th Oct 2005, 08:13

I enjoyed that story, thanks Geoff

battery · 14th Oct 2005, 08:17

That is an insane number of polys to throw at a console, also considering that there will be tons more when the game is up and running. Great article, great model, lovely render. Cant wait to play it

Flibblebot · 14th Oct 2005, 09:00

So...that's avg 95k polygons per car (including the assumed 10k for damage), say 6 cars per race. That's over half a million polys just for the cars.
Add on polys for the scenery and spectators (who are allegedly interactive), and that is a truly amazing number of polygons to be throwing around...

The_Pope · 14th Oct 2005, 10:10

Yes indeed, which might suggest why they could be struggling a little for frame rate, capping it at 30. Then again, they *did* say they would try and hit 60, and seemed fairly confident they could given the time... it now just depends on whether they can get it done before they have to sign it off and go to master in order to hit retail before Xmas.

Incidentally, while I don't have any specific techie details on it, I would well imagine there is lots of clever z-buffer culling going on here. Basically, if one car is in front of another, blocking the view, the GPU just doesn't bother to render the "invisible" polygons, which saves a lot of bandwidth.

It's been around at the consumer PC graphics level for a decade now, back when it was 3dfx vs PowerVR - the latter using Tile-Based Rendering (TBR) which was very clever, but ultimately failed in the face of NVIDIA vs 3dfx / NVIDIA vs ATI.

If you think about 6 cars on a starting grid, not 100% of all six cars will be visible at any one time. Indeed, take just one car, driving in front of us: arguably all the polys that make up the front of the car won't be drawn because they are obscured by the back half of the car...

Like I said, I don't have any information as to what exactly Bizarre are doing, what the ATI GPU is capable of etc but this is just one trick developers can use to have the appearance of a high-poly scene.

Asphix · 14th Oct 2005, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flibblebot

So...that's avg 95k polygons per car (including the assumed 10k for damage), say 6 cars per race. That's over half a million polys just for the cars.
Add on polys for the scenery and spectators (who are allegedly interactive), and that is a truly amazing number of polygons to be throwing around...

In the article he said it was NOT including the 10,000 per car of damage. To that means 105k if you include the damage... per car.

I'm almost positive as pope said they are using some techniques to make the rendering more economic. Thats what CG is all about.. creating the most life-like image in the most economic way.

kickarse · 14th Oct 2005, 14:51

Simply amazing how realistic it will look. Can't wait till some in game screenshots...

Kipman725 · 14th Oct 2005, 16:34

can you plug an xbox360 into a vga monitor?

The_Pope · 14th Oct 2005, 16:46

Kipman725:I'm sure there will be an option, just as there is for every other console. You may have to wait for a 3rd party VGA adapter, but it will happen.

kickarse: There are loads of in-game screenshots floating about matey: http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2005/...ictures/4.html

MrWillyWonka · 14th Oct 2005, 17:11

I love the poly car, just put that in as my desktop background! 105,000polygons is crazy, I'm not an xbox fan, but I have loved playing PG2 on my friend's xbox, and I think I'll be liking pg3 if I ever play it.

Cadillac Ferd · 14th Oct 2005, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pope

Kipman725:I'm sure there will be an option, just as there is for every other console. You may have to wait for a 3rd party VGA adapter, but it will happen.

Microsoft announced a while back (when they first announced periphiels for the system) a 360toVGA cable as one of the video cable options they would be making and having avaibalable at launch I beleive.

riggs · 14th Oct 2005, 22:58

Well, if the 360 can throw around that many polygons, that's made my mind up (seeing as the PS3 is gonna be expensive as hell, and my housemate will probably be buying a Revolution (he's a bit of a Ninty fanboy)).

The_Pope · 15th Oct 2005, 01:08

It's still early days, radiator. Xbox 360 will be available this Christmas (in fact, just 5 weeks away now for US readers) and we know the pricing. If anything, PS3 could be faster, but all we really know is that it's due 'sometime' in 2006, and will be *intentionally* expensive.

One doesn't buy a console based on polygon throughput alone - it's what it can do with those polygons, so as always, it comes down to the games. I'm a PGR fan, so Xbox 360 for me. MGS / GT nutters will wait it out for PS3, and then the Console Wars will start all over again.

Lucidity · 15th Oct 2005, 05:11

The number of polygons in relation to frame rates is very controlled the way I think about it. The only time you really get all cars on screen at once is at the start, at which you aren't going really fast, but once the race gets going cars seperate and usaually a few lag behind, or can't be seen because they have already made a turn, or haven't made that turn. 60 fps should be acheived rather easily for the most part of the races (hopefully). Though 35 fps looks pretty smooth to me at least.....

XUntitled · 15th Oct 2005, 07:51

My last console was the PS2. I bought it and gradually stopped playing. After a about 9 months not playing it I sold it. I would never buy a console based on polygon count of "my processor is better then your processor" kind of talk. I'll give it a try though. If the games are good (and not just good looking) I'll probably buy one.

I know that it will never pull my away from PC games though, ever.

Aankhen · 15th Oct 2005, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by XUntitled

I know that it will never pull my away from PC games though, ever.

Hear, hear!

14th Oct 2005, 05:54	#1
The_Pope Geoff Richards Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 2,089	PGR3 developer lied about polygon count Those naughty, naughty people - fancy lying to all their fans... http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/10...oly_count_lie/

14th Oct 2005, 07:19	#4
BlueDemon Modder Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 58	The Project Gotham line of games has always looked impressive, as well on paper as on screen. I don't have an Xbox, and have always hoped that Bizarre Creations would release a PC version; it looks like this isn't going to happen any time soon... pity. It just might convince me to get an Xbox360. The Need for Speed series has lost its appeal as far as I'm concerned. The greatest title was Porsche Unleashed / Porsche 2000 (NFS5). It was a fairly realistic sim, the first in the series where you could really FEEL the difference in car design, suspension, and performance as you evolved through the 40+ years of Porsche history. The "Underground" games are too much focused on visuals and "pimping", and lack the refreshing driving experience of previous incarnations. Also, another huge disappointment in NFSU are the tracks - or should I say track. It grows tired in about 10 minutes. Each track is no more than a slight variation of the previous one. Gone are the varied landscapes as we've come to expect from NFS. I wish EA would refocus this product line, and remember that the game should be about DRIVING, not simply about having the most pimped-out ride... __________________ ..:: Now, and always ::..

14th Oct 2005, 08:17	#7
battery What's a Dremel? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oak Ring Town Posts: 16	That is an insane number of polys to throw at a console, also considering that there will be tons more when the game is up and running. Great article, great model, lovely render. Cant wait to play it __________________ Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe, Athlon XP 3000+, 1 GB RAM, Gigabyte N66T128VP ssshh, Seagate SATA 120GB, Maxtor IDE 120GB

14th Oct 2005, 09:00	#8
Flibblebot Free from artificial flavourings Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here, right now Posts: 2,227	So...that's avg 95k polygons per car (including the assumed 10k for damage), say 6 cars per race. That's over half a million polys just for the cars. Add on polys for the scenery and spectators (who are allegedly interactive), and that is a truly amazing number of polygons to be throwing around... __________________ My uber-system: 66Mhz 486DX2, 8Mb RAM, 20Mb hard drive, 256 colour VGA adaptor (goes all the way up to 800x600!), keyboard AND serial mouse

14th Oct 2005, 14:51	#11
kickarse Ultramodder Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Holyoke, MA Posts: 1,281	Simply amazing how realistic it will look. Can't wait till some in game screenshots... __________________ Top 5 Listening to Now - A Second To Last - Dying Against Your Will Rock Kills Kid - Paralyzed Zero State Reflex - I'm Splintering Hot Hot Heat - Middle of No Where - www.nerges.net

14th Oct 2005, 07:10	#2
Cadillac Ferd Multimodder Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Maaaaryland, USA Posts: 219	hahahahahahaha, that's hilarious.

14th Oct 2005, 07:12	#3
XUntitled Supermodder Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: PA Posts: 454	Nice way to introduce/write that article The models really do look good... i'm not a console fan but still, maybe I should be.

14th Oct 2005, 07:32	#5
The_Pope Geoff Richards Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 2,089	I can't take the credit for the angle on this story - I just followed the lead of Ben @ Bizarre. But it made me smile, so I thought you guys might enjoy it too. I'm a huge PGR fan. I too wasn't really a console fan XUntitled, but I have now shifted from PC only to a horses-for-course person: PC for FPS; Xbox for driving games. I haven't played Underground BlueDemon but I know Tim uses it a lot for his graphics card benchmarking, so I'm sure he'll post a comment. The graphics on Xbox 360 for Most Wanted look amazing. I'm still likely to favour PGR3, since it should have the gameplay I fell in love with years ago with MSR on Dreamcast (same developer). The comments from X05 have me a little worried, but since I won't be getting a 360 until after Christmas, I'll get plenty of warning of what the retail code is like. This is a little ironic for me, considering I spent about £400 buying my first Xbox almost sight unseen. I was lucky enough to have the chance to play PGR1 in the NVIDIA meeting rooms at Comdex 2001. I was already a big fan of MSR, so the decision of whether to queue up that night at Midnight to buy an Xbox on day of release was down how PGR played. As it turned out, I loved it, and thanks to my MSR experience, was pretty good even at the first attempt. Indeed, the NVIDIA staff milling about asked if I was one of the developers - none of them were any good at the game, whereas I just waltzed in and pwned from the green light I know from 2 years of PGR2 on XBOX Live that there are many better players than I am, but I always like telling that story just the same :P As you might imagine, I'm pretty excited about Gotham TV and the idea of tournament races being broadcast to an audience. Maybe I'll start a bit-tech league...

14th Oct 2005, 08:13	#6
Cheese Doc Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cambridge, UK. Posts: 4,609	I enjoyed that story, thanks Geoff

14th Oct 2005, 10:10	#9
The_Pope Geoff Richards Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 2,089	Yes indeed, which might suggest why they could be struggling a little for frame rate, capping it at 30. Then again, they did say they would try and hit 60, and seemed fairly confident they could given the time... it now just depends on whether they can get it done before they have to sign it off and go to master in order to hit retail before Xmas. Incidentally, while I don't have any specific techie details on it, I would well imagine there is lots of clever z-buffer culling going on here. Basically, if one car is in front of another, blocking the view, the GPU just doesn't bother to render the "invisible" polygons, which saves a lot of bandwidth. It's been around at the consumer PC graphics level for a decade now, back when it was 3dfx vs PowerVR - the latter using Tile-Based Rendering (TBR) which was very clever, but ultimately failed in the face of NVIDIA vs 3dfx / NVIDIA vs ATI. If you think about 6 cars on a starting grid, not 100% of all six cars will be visible at any one time. Indeed, take just one car, driving in front of us: arguably all the polys that make up the front of the car won't be drawn because they are obscured by the back half of the car... Like I said, I don't have any information as to what exactly Bizarre are doing, what the ATI GPU is capable of etc but this is just one trick developers can use to have the appearance of a high-poly scene.

14th Oct 2005, 16:34	#12
Kipman725 When did I get a custom title!?! Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,753	can you plug an xbox360 into a vga monitor? __________________ Sn45g game server mod My Electronics Site Hardware: 3400+ Sempr0n, 1GB RAM, 1.28TB local storage, x1950pro,Razer Viper,M$ comfort curve 2000,L70S + 17", Fujitsu 17" CRT Audio: HD-650's, PE congress amp, Sound Blaster AWE64, Soundblaster 24bit

14th Oct 2005, 16:46	#13
The_Pope Geoff Richards Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 2,089	Kipman725:I'm sure there will be an option, just as there is for every other console. You may have to wait for a 3rd party VGA adapter, but it will happen. kickarse: There are loads of in-game screenshots floating about matey: http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2005/...ictures/4.html

14th Oct 2005, 17:11	#14
MrWillyWonka . Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Southampton, Hants Posts: 5,746	I love the poly car, just put that in as my desktop background! 105,000polygons is crazy, I'm not an xbox fan, but I have loved playing PG2 on my friend's xbox, and I think I'll be liking pg3 if I ever play it. __________________ Project Red - HL2 - PSOne LCD S-Video Guide Main Rig: Asus Striker Extreme, Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 G0 OC'd to 2.65GHz, 4GB Corsair XMS, 8800GTS in SLI, 36 & 74GB Raptors

14th Oct 2005, 22:58	#16
riggs ^_^ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Lincs. Posts: 1,643	Well, if the 360 can throw around that many polygons, that's made my mind up (seeing as the PS3 is gonna be expensive as hell, and my housemate will probably be buying a Revolution (he's a bit of a Ninty fanboy)). __________________ Hell hath no fury like a hippo with a machine gun PSN ID: buster2006

15th Oct 2005, 01:08	#17
The_Pope Geoff Richards Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 2,089	It's still early days, radiator. Xbox 360 will be available this Christmas (in fact, just 5 weeks away now for US readers) and we know the pricing. If anything, PS3 could be faster, but all we really know is that it's due 'sometime' in 2006, and will be intentionally expensive. One doesn't buy a console based on polygon throughput alone - it's what it can do with those polygons, so as always, it comes down to the games. I'm a PGR fan, so Xbox 360 for me. MGS / GT nutters will wait it out for PS3, and then the Console Wars will start all over again.

15th Oct 2005, 05:11	#18
Lucidity Multimodder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NC Posts: 139	The number of polygons in relation to frame rates is very controlled the way I think about it. The only time you really get all cars on screen at once is at the start, at which you aren't going really fast, but once the race gets going cars seperate and usaually a few lag behind, or can't be seen because they have already made a turn, or haven't made that turn. 60 fps should be acheived rather easily for the most part of the races (hopefully). Though 35 fps looks pretty smooth to me at least..... __________________ [size=1]AMD 64 6000+ X2, Asus M2N SLI Deluxe, 4 GBs of Corsair XMS 6400 ram, Nvidia GeForce 8800 GTS 320mb

15th Oct 2005, 07:51	#19
XUntitled Supermodder Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: PA Posts: 454	My last console was the PS2. I bought it and gradually stopped playing. After a about 9 months not playing it I sold it. I would never buy a console based on polygon count of "my processor is better then your processor" kind of talk. I'll give it a try though. If the games are good (and not just good looking) I'll probably buy one. I know that it will never pull my away from PC games though, ever.