AGEIA's PhysX PPU delayed - bit-tech.net Forums

WilHarris · 5th Dec 2005, 13:30

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/12...x_ppu_delayed/

FIBRE+ · 5th Dec 2005, 13:51

D'oh, it's kind of expected really

Maybe if they would of shouted about it a bit louder and earlier then the public would've been interested and then maybe more games would've been ready for crimbo. You can't create a demand for something that most people dont know exists

So is this thing gonna give our systems a reasonable boost for Unreal 3 Engine, is it really worth shelling out the dosh on one when I and many others buy my/there pc's in March?

Firehed · 5th Dec 2005, 15:12

I think the pricing will make or break it for the PC except for the rich geek market.

acidfire · 5th Dec 2005, 15:31

I remember reading somewhere (maybe it was here) that Asus had picked up the tech as an onboard option, so it'll be interesting if they stuck to that root. Has anyone played with the novodex rocket demo? Its a nice little tech demo that shows off the physics at work (the engine was meant for consoles) but if the hardware is anywhere close to the software it should be a huge load off the cpu. I know the demo and prototype cards were both PCIe and PCI, i wonder if they'll keep the design.

Personally, im glad that its been pushed back, now i've got time to save after christmas

Nature · 5th Dec 2005, 15:39

I'm curious: Is this a new GPU? What is a PPU?
If this be a new company (Agiea) for the GPU industry, what kind of performance comparisons should we expect from the Big dogs? (Ati,nVida)
If this card is supported by "Bet On A Soldier" is it availible? And are there comparisons availible with other mainstream cards?

Bindibadgi · 5th Dec 2005, 15:45

It's an add on card that works alongside your GPU and CPU to calculate physics data specifically.

acidfire · 5th Dec 2005, 17:26

if your interested in what it would do, take a look for the novodex rocket demo. Its got a whole bunch of tech demos that pretty much simulate what the card will be capable of when its available. Best part is, its all interactive!

As for boosting the card's launch, why not wait till Unreal Tournament 2k7 is ready and bundle it with the card?

perplekks45 · 5th Dec 2005, 20:26

Another idea: Why not launch it with Stalker as it seems to be the next product being expected a lot (of benefit) of and having to wait a lot (of time) for.

Naked_Dave · 5th Dec 2005, 23:00

This may be a stupid question, but...

If we have a graphics card handling graphics, and a physics card handling physics, what is left over to justify our expensive fast CPUs?

MrWillyWonka · 5th Dec 2005, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naked_Dave

This may be a stupid question, but...

If we have a graphics card handling graphics, and a physics card handling physics, what is left over to justify our expensive fast CPUs?

The CPU still needs to calculate player movements with relation to the game and artificial intellegence, with dual core and less load on them as well as SLi, gaming experience is set to be awesome in the next year!

So this is PCI then? With PCI-e boards only having two PCI slots (or 3 for the DFI expert) space for extra stuff is going to get very tight, and we're gonna need more cooling too.

Naked_Dave · 5th Dec 2005, 23:13

Ahh yes, AI! Somehow i'd forgotten about that... probably due to the games i've been playing recently!

thecrownles · 6th Dec 2005, 00:37

I agree with Naked_dave, in that if there is a physics card coming out at a reasonable price, we have no justification for insanely fast cpu's, but this also means that we won't have to shell out top dollar for a great CPU, but can instead go for the second-tier ones that will hold up well with the support of a PPU.

Also wondering, when you're not in a game that supports PPU's, could they just make the PPU act as a second processor that you could delegate menial tasks to, such as random OS services that tend to clog the main CPU?

Nature · 6th Dec 2005, 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bindibadgi

It's an add on card that works alongside your GPU and CPU to calculate physics data specifically.

So how is that beneficial? I mean just calculating. If the GPU renders the graphics, and the CPU organizes the info, what will that the physics card do that the other two cannot? It seams like physics instruments have been already integrated into modern GPUs, why is there a need for secondary engine?

Firehed · 6th Dec 2005, 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWillyWonka

The CPU still needs to calculate player movements with relation to the game and artificial intellegence, with dual core and less load on them as well as SLi, gaming experience is set to be awesome in the next year!

So this is PCI then? With PCI-e boards only having two PCI slots (or 3 for the DFI expert) space for extra stuff is going to get very tight, and we're gonna need more cooling too.

AI indeed. Lest we forget, the data has to get to the GPU somehow as well.

Look at the other end of the card. You can flip it over for PCIE.

Nature - a PPU will do for physics what a GPU does for graphics. Try software rendering, everything is done on the CPU. And it has six times the clock speeds of graphics cards. It's like real-world (umm.. yeah.. because computers are fake...

) situations - specialization gets things done better. As it stands, phyics are calculated entirely on the CPU. Of course, 9.8m/s/s isn't that hard to calculate (240! takes about a hundredth of a second, which despite Apple's marketing is the actual number of possibilities for the 1gb shuffle, some 430 digits long), but do it on a million particles and it gets bogged down. The PPU helps there.

I'd expect that at some point, the PPU will be integrated onto the GPU card, if not the core itself. More of a space management thing than anything else. No sense wasting a PCI/PCIE slot when you'll only get something out of it if you're using the GPU slot anyways.

Nature · 6th Dec 2005, 10:34

Thnx Pyro

r4tch3t · 6th Dec 2005, 11:45

I am all for the bundel with UT2K7, I for one will most likely be getting one. That is once they have been out a while, I am planning to build my new computer in 2K7.
I think that once this has been widely adopted it will benifit us greatly.

Nottheking · 6th Dec 2005, 18:05

When I read the headline of this thread, I thought it said "AGEIA's PhysX PPU Derailed."

It would've seemed to be a much more fitting title, at least to me.

The way I see it, AGEIA is chomping after a market that was very small to begin with, and is evaporating before they even get a chance to take advantage of it. As it was commented above, most of us don't want to spend a lot of money on a CPU; we want to buy an Athlon64 3000+, 3200+, or 3500+ for less than $200US and have that be all we need.

There might be room for a physics processor market, but it seems that the gap for one is closing fast, as both the giants of CPUs and PPUs are moving to cover it.

First off is the CPU. With the advent of dual-core CPUs, a game can actually be programmed to offload physics calculations to the second core. One could easily suppose that this wouldn't really be all that much more difficult than implementing support for a physics processor; The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion will apparently be such a game that can truly take advantage of a multi-core setup. When you have a full CPU core that you can use for physics and nothing else, that's a lot, and it does free up the primary CPU to boot. The downside here is that this means you need a dual-core CPU. Many of us don't even have a Socket 939 or LGA 775 motherboard, so we can't even UPGRADE to a dual-core chip, without building what is effectively a new computer.

The second side is the graphics card. ATi has been constantly pushing for more and more flexibility in their GPUs. The first such really major sign of this would be the "X850 flow" screensaver, which handles a dynamic simulation of multiple colored fluids by offloading the physics calculations to the graphics card. Later, there have been comments from researchers that the Radeon X1800XT can be utilized as a powerful general-purpose floating-point processor, pumping out calculations at an insane 80+ gigaflops. This is a more attractive and fitting option than the CPU because as gamers, we already buy a graphics card to go with our PC, and are often more willing to spend a great deal on one than on the CPU. Additionally, graphics cards already handle parallel processing with ease, so taking away just a little bit of the vast power they have could have little impact on performance, while providing a lot of power for physics simulations. This is also nice because it limits you to only needing ONE card to enhance your gaming experience through more processors, not two. (I'm not counting that Audigy or X-Fi, obviously)

Really, I see that AGEIA may have a brilliant idea, but they're likely not going to be able to cash in on this. Especially if the cards wind up costing a significant amount of money; $200US (I have no clue on the price here) might be a bit too steep for even the vast majority of gamers out there, when placed on top of the money they already spent on a video or graphics card; they could just decide to instead spend that money on the CPU. If it's truly affordable, (<$100US) perhaps it could take off, but if it comes with a price that only rich junkies can afford, than it will be pricing a product so it can only be afforded by a group that has no need for it.

5th Dec 2005, 13:30	#1
WilHarris Just another nobody Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oxford Posts: 2,671	AGEIA's PhysX PPU delayed http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/12...x_ppu_delayed/

5th Dec 2005, 13:51	#2
FIBRE+ Ultramodder Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oxford Posts: 1,306	D'oh, it's kind of expected really Maybe if they would of shouted about it a bit louder and earlier then the public would've been interested and then maybe more games would've been ready for crimbo. You can't create a demand for something that most people dont know exists So is this thing gonna give our systems a reasonable boost for Unreal 3 Engine, is it really worth shelling out the dosh on one when I and many others buy my/there pc's in March? __________________ ++ASUS SLI Premium \| X2 3800 @ 2.6ghz \| XP-120 \| 2GB Mushkin \| 8800 GT \| XFI Music \| Seagate 320GB \ Samsung F1 1TB \| 520W Corsair HX \| 23" Dell S2309W ++ ++Zotac 9300 Mini ITX \| Intel E5200 \| Scythe Shuriken \| 2GB Corsair \| 8600 GTS (Passive) \| WD Black 2.5" 320GB \ Samsung F2 Eco 1TB \| Corsair VX 450W \| 42" Panasonic Viera++ ++Canon 400D \| Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 \| Canon 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 \| Sandisk Extreme III 4GB++My Ebay++

5th Dec 2005, 15:12	#3
Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: An hour north of Boston Posts: 12,576	I think the pricing will make or break it for the PC except for the rich geek market. __________________ hire me @ eric-stern.com - web developer and php ninja pics @ my smugmug :: Twitter @firehed :: blog @ firehed.net 40D\|580EXII\|285HV\|AB800\|70-200f/4LIS\|17-50f/2.8\|150f/2.8Macro\|50f/1.8 MacPro @ 8x2.8GHz, 10GB FBDDR2, 3TB HD :: MBP @ 2x2.2GHz, 4GB DDR2, 320GB HD

5th Dec 2005, 15:31	#4
acidfire Supermodder Join Date: May 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 254	I remember reading somewhere (maybe it was here) that Asus had picked up the tech as an onboard option, so it'll be interesting if they stuck to that root. Has anyone played with the novodex rocket demo? Its a nice little tech demo that shows off the physics at work (the engine was meant for consoles) but if the hardware is anywhere close to the software it should be a huge load off the cpu. I know the demo and prototype cards were both PCIe and PCI, i wonder if they'll keep the design. Personally, im glad that its been pushed back, now i've got time to save after christmas __________________ "And when he gets to heaven, To St. Peter he will tell; One more soldier reporting sir, I served my time in hell. "

5th Dec 2005, 15:39	#5
Nature Supermodder Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Jinan, China Posts: 417	I'm curious: Is this a new GPU? What is a PPU? If this be a new company (Agiea) for the GPU industry, what kind of performance comparisons should we expect from the Big dogs? (Ati,nVida) If this card is supported by "Bet On A Soldier" is it availible? And are there comparisons availible with other mainstream cards? __________________ Peace, Love, Empathy, Respect, Generosity, Smiles, and Hugs

5th Dec 2005, 15:45	#6
Bindibadgi Richard Swinburne bit-tech Staff Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Omnipwntent Posts: 28,275	It's an add on card that works alongside your GPU and CPU to calculate physics data specifically. __________________ Made you look, made you stare, made you clicked this in your underwear! Den of Geek!

5th Dec 2005, 17:26	#7
acidfire Supermodder Join Date: May 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 254	if your interested in what it would do, take a look for the novodex rocket demo. Its got a whole bunch of tech demos that pretty much simulate what the card will be capable of when its available. Best part is, its all interactive! As for boosting the card's launch, why not wait till Unreal Tournament 2k7 is ready and bundle it with the card? __________________ "And when he gets to heaven, To St. Peter he will tell; One more soldier reporting sir, I served my time in hell. "

5th Dec 2005, 20:26	#8
perplekks45 BSc... finally Join Date: May 2004 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,350	Another idea: Why not launch it with Stalker as it seems to be the next product being expected a lot (of benefit) of and having to wait a lot (of time) for. __________________ "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far." Blame it on Cheaps! [now a social group]

5th Dec 2005, 23:00	#9
Naked_Dave Supermodder Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bournemouth, England Posts: 594	This may be a stupid question, but... If we have a graphics card handling graphics, and a physics card handling physics, what is left over to justify our expensive fast CPUs?

5th Dec 2005, 23:13	#11
Naked_Dave Supermodder Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bournemouth, England Posts: 594	Ahh yes, AI! Somehow i'd forgotten about that... probably due to the games i've been playing recently!

6th Dec 2005, 00:37	#12
thecrownles What's a Relix? Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois-US Posts: 734	I agree with Naked_dave, in that if there is a physics card coming out at a reasonable price, we have no justification for insanely fast cpu's, but this also means that we won't have to shell out top dollar for a great CPU, but can instead go for the second-tier ones that will hold up well with the support of a PPU. Also wondering, when you're not in a game that supports PPU's, could they just make the PPU act as a second processor that you could delegate menial tasks to, such as random OS services that tend to clog the main CPU? __________________ Sam0r: Mr. Winky got a little aroused, needless to say I was tenting. Women... know your place.

6th Dec 2005, 10:34	#15
Nature Supermodder Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Jinan, China Posts: 417	Thnx Pyro __________________ Peace, Love, Empathy, Respect, Generosity, Smiles, and Hugs

6th Dec 2005, 11:45	#16
r4tch3t hmmmm.... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,885	I am all for the bundel with UT2K7, I for one will most likely be getting one. That is once they have been out a while, I am planning to build my new computer in 2K7. I think that once this has been widely adopted it will benifit us greatly. __________________ Fight my Brute The quantum limit of reality might be scaled up because we're all holograms. Obviously. Once more we see that sufficiently advanced physics is indistinguishable from getting really stoned. From here

6th Dec 2005, 18:05	#17
Nottheking Multimodder Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 91	When I read the headline of this thread, I thought it said "AGEIA's PhysX PPU Derailed." It would've seemed to be a much more fitting title, at least to me. The way I see it, AGEIA is chomping after a market that was very small to begin with, and is evaporating before they even get a chance to take advantage of it. As it was commented above, most of us don't want to spend a lot of money on a CPU; we want to buy an Athlon64 3000+, 3200+, or 3500+ for less than $200US and have that be all we need. There might be room for a physics processor market, but it seems that the gap for one is closing fast, as both the giants of CPUs and PPUs are moving to cover it. First off is the CPU. With the advent of dual-core CPUs, a game can actually be programmed to offload physics calculations to the second core. One could easily suppose that this wouldn't really be all that much more difficult than implementing support for a physics processor; The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion will apparently be such a game that can truly take advantage of a multi-core setup. When you have a full CPU core that you can use for physics and nothing else, that's a lot, and it does free up the primary CPU to boot. The downside here is that this means you need a dual-core CPU. Many of us don't even have a Socket 939 or LGA 775 motherboard, so we can't even UPGRADE to a dual-core chip, without building what is effectively a new computer. The second side is the graphics card. ATi has been constantly pushing for more and more flexibility in their GPUs. The first such really major sign of this would be the "X850 flow" screensaver, which handles a dynamic simulation of multiple colored fluids by offloading the physics calculations to the graphics card. Later, there have been comments from researchers that the Radeon X1800XT can be utilized as a powerful general-purpose floating-point processor, pumping out calculations at an insane 80+ gigaflops. This is a more attractive and fitting option than the CPU because as gamers, we already buy a graphics card to go with our PC, and are often more willing to spend a great deal on one than on the CPU. Additionally, graphics cards already handle parallel processing with ease, so taking away just a little bit of the vast power they have could have little impact on performance, while providing a lot of power for physics simulations. This is also nice because it limits you to only needing ONE card to enhance your gaming experience through more processors, not two. (I'm not counting that Audigy or X-Fi, obviously) Really, I see that AGEIA may have a brilliant idea, but they're likely not going to be able to cash in on this. Especially if the cards wind up costing a significant amount of money; $200US (I have no clue on the price here) might be a bit too steep for even the vast majority of gamers out there, when placed on top of the money they already spent on a video or graphics card; they could just decide to instead spend that money on the CPU. If it's truly affordable, (<$100US) perhaps it could take off, but if it comes with a price that only rich junkies can afford, than it will be pricing a product so it can only be afforded by a group that has no need for it.