Brit Spooks want your crypto keys - bit-tech.net Forums

WilHarris · 22nd May 2006, 09:21

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/05...r_crypto_keys/

Uno1_ · 22nd May 2006, 09:53

This is worrying indeed.

"We need these powers to fight terrorz0rs! And you're not a terror-person are you? If you don't give us these powers, you must be a terrorism!"

As far as I can see, if they have evidence you're planning a terror attack, they don't need your damn passwords. Cause they'd already have evidence. So when would these laws get used? When they don't have evidence. And if they don't have evidence...? The law system in Britain is "supposed" to be predicated on the presumption of innocence, isn't it?

But wave the terrorism flag around... I've seen quotes floating around saying that by downloading pirate mp3's you're directly funding terrorists... Don't know how that works!

No doubt this law will get passed though.

The only saving grace on any of this is that populations are growing to the point where monitoring everyone will be nigh impossible. Mind you though, China does a pretty damn good job, if the account in "Absurdistan" is accurate.

I'm seriously tempted to run for parliament on a "Screw this, this anti-terror stuff is way out of hand, everyone's sick of it, stop saying we need the powers to screw our own citizens over in order to prevent any more terror attacks." platform. But I'd probably get locked up as a dissident.... um, I mean, terrorist! "Who else would be saying we don't need to be able to tap phone lines without a warrant? He must have something to hide! He must be a terrorism!"

Cthippo · 22nd May 2006, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uno1_

I'm seriously tempted to run for parliament on a "Screw this, this anti-terror stuff is way out of hand, everyone's sick of it, stop saying we need the powers to screw our own citizens over in order to prevent any more terror attacks." platform. But I'd probably get locked up as a dissident.... um, I mean, terrorist! "Who else would be saying we don't need to be able to tap phone lines without a warrant? He must have something to hide! He must be a terrorism!"

Sadly, I can't vote for you, but if you do run, I'll contribute to your campaign!

Sigh, that sounds like somthing an American would say, doesn't it?

glynwintle · 22nd May 2006, 12:31

The Open Rights Group have a lot of information on this. See http://www.openrightsgroup.org/orgwi...ory_Powers_Act

quack · 22nd May 2006, 12:45

Couldn't you find a more up-to-date pic from Spooks?

2 of them have left MI5 and the other one's dead.

I'd like to know when exactly we lost the Principle of Presumption of Innocence.

When did we become guilty until proven innocent?

Spaced_invader · 22nd May 2006, 15:21

let's say i'm a terrorist, hmmm, would i like 2 years or 20?

zr_ox · 22nd May 2006, 16:37

That's truely worrying!

Its like Bush's speach prior to the second Invasion of Iraq - "If your not with us, your against us"

What happened to freedom of speach and the liberties associated with being part of a modern western culture. Our liberties are going and governments pass laws whether you like it or not. Democracy....ehh where, our governments are trying to force feed the Democracy model to anyone living in the middle east. Hilarious since the UK, US & Europe are becoming Police States.

Just saw V for Vendetta and whilst it's pretty bias, some truth's and shocking similarities lie there.

Our IT support at work has been outsourced to Asia, our network is not being upgraded by the IT department but by external contractors, remote exchange servers & print servers, no administrative privelages...the list goes on. Today the General Manager came in and asked for our opinions provided it was positive. We tried to tell her how we really see things but she persisted that we must be positive, and if we have nothing positive to say we should lie! WTF!

Sorry Rant over (feel free to delete if necessary admins....had to get it out)

specofdust · 22nd May 2006, 16:44

I really don't think this is actually going to happen. It'd really mess up certain business prospects for the UK, it'd be very complicated, and very expensive. I just don't see the government doing it(at least not if they get proper consultation from smart people first).

Especially when you consider that it's not impossible(or anywhere near it) to encyrpt a secondary file ontop of the primary one. So you could encrpyt terrorist document number one, then shove a love letter ontop of that, and encrypt again. When the polizei ask you for the key, just give them the love lettes key, and bingo, they get squat.

Second to that, you could just encrypt the thing so well that it was unbreakable. The best they'd be able to get you for then would be breaking the encryption laws, the punishment of which would almost certainly be lesser then any of the crimes people would have to be committing before they'd goto the lengths of encrypting stuff on a regular basis to a high level.

Anakha · 22nd May 2006, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zr_ox

That's truely worrying!

Its like Bush's speach prior to the second Invasion of Iraq - "If your not with us, your against us"

What happened to freedom of speach and the liberties associated with being part of a modern western culture. Our liberties are going and governments pass laws whether you like it or not. Democracy....ehh where, our governments are trying to force feed the Democracy model to anyone living in the middle east. Hilarious since the UK, US & Europe are becoming Police States.

Just saw V for Vendetta and whilst it's pretty bias, some truth's and shocking similarities lie there.

Our IT support at work has been outsourced to Asia, our network is not being upgraded by the IT department but by external contractors, remote exchange servers & print servers, no administrative privelages...the list goes on. Today the General Manager came in and asked for our opinions provided it was positive. We tried to tell her how we really see things but she persisted that we must be positive, and if we have nothing positive to say we should lie! WTF!

Sorry Rant over (feel free to delete if necessary admins....had to get it out)

Easy response there. Something like "I'm positive we can overcome the problems and challenges this new system is causing all of us, and that what doesn't kill this company will eventually make it stronger, even if it takes a total overhaul of the decisions management executives have made to do so".

eddtox · 23rd May 2006, 18:05

One question though: If the data does indeed prove to be innocent after they have dragged you through courts and all that, will you get compensation for your troubles? It seems only rational that you would as you have been persecuted and prosecuted for no reason. Also, would a warrant be required for such requests? If not, the potential for abuse is even greater. As for the funding terrorism fiasco, would somebody kindly enlighten me regarding how someone who cannot afford £15 for a CD could possibly be funding terrorism. If that were true we'd have terrorists shooting water pistols at us (not a bad idea IMHO).

-ed out

Spaced_invader · 24th May 2006, 09:04

^^ specially when your downloading that mp3 for free...

Uno1_ · 24th May 2006, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddtox

One question though: If the data does indeed prove to be innocent after they have dragged you through courts and all that, will you get compensation for your troubles? It seems only rational that you would as you have been persecuted and prosecuted for no reason.

Doubt it. After all, David Hicks is still in Guantanamo 4 years on and he STILL HASN'T BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME. The states is doing a real russia on this. "Yeah, we're holding him here. Cause we can. And eventually you'll shut up about it and we'll still have him here."

If they can prove him to be a terrorist, charge him, show the evidence, then blow his damn head off for all I care. But the fact they're holding an Australian citizen for 4 years without charges really pisses me off. As far as they've shown, they've got just as much evidence on anyone else in the entire damn world. Precisely none.

eddtox · 24th May 2006, 12:36

"We don't know if you've done anything wrong, or ever will do, but we'll keep you in prison anyway!" Whatever happened to human rights.

-ed out

NetSoerfer · 24th May 2006, 12:42

I read an interesting comment on this somewhere, similar to what specofdust suggested. If you're looking to get around this law, make use of the principle of plausible deniability.

Copy protections like TrueCrypt use a container file to store encrypted data. This container file can either be resized as necessary or given a specific size from the beginning. Now this file isn't filled with blanks after it's created, but rather with random data. Coupled with the fact that encrypted data cannot be distinguished from random data, you're all set to walk into court, give them a key they can use, and walk out without having incriminated yourself of anything illegal.

Take a 100 GB container file, and think of it as a drive that only reveals its partitions if you got the right key. How would you know how many partitions it contains? If asked, you hand out key A, revealing a 85 GB partition filled with anything, like DVD backups, TV recordings, music, whatever floats your boat. You've fulfilled your duty and cannot be persecuted for withholding the key to your encrypted data.

The really important data that would inciminate you is hidden in a second partition, using key B which nobody can prove exists. You can even delete it and the encrypted data can never be recovered, or even proven to exist. Voilà, the law is rendered obsolete.

Besides, what are two years of jail compared to being found guilty of terrorism? Even without the above, I strongly doubt anyone would rather serve a lifetime prison for terrorism than do a fraction of the time for withholding the data.

Convince me otherwise, but IMHO, this is ridiculous.

By the way, what's a Dremel?

specofdust · 24th May 2006, 14:29

A dremel is a rotory tool, primarily used for cutting, but it has multiple functions. Among people who mod(modify) their PC cases and equipment, it is generally the most common and frequently the most popular tool. It provides the uses of many, many power tools, at a fraction of the price. However, obviously the functions it carries out are generally lesser then that of a dedicated power tool set. But when a set of power tools that could do the same number of things as a Dremel could cost up to £1000, and a Dremel costs £80, the choice for modders is clear

NetSoerfer · 24th May 2006, 16:02

Oh boy... nofi, I was just kidding (because that was my first post)... Still, thanks for taking the time to explain

specofdust · 24th May 2006, 16:06

Oh, I've explained that a few times. You wouldn't believe the number of people who're new to bit-tech that seriously don't know what a Dremel is

22nd May 2006, 09:21	#1
WilHarris Just another nobody Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oxford Posts: 2,671	Brit Spooks want your crypto keys http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/05...r_crypto_keys/

22nd May 2006, 12:31	#4
glynwintle What's a Dremel? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1	Open Rights Group The Open Rights Group have a lot of information on this. See http://www.openrightsgroup.org/orgwi...ory_Powers_Act

22nd May 2006, 12:45	#5
quack \o/ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: England Posts: 5,222	Couldn't you find a more up-to-date pic from Spooks? 2 of them have left MI5 and the other one's dead. I'd like to know when exactly we lost the Principle of Presumption of Innocence. When did we become guilty until proven innocent? __________________ Denying Rights to Music lovers. Denying Rights to Movie lovers.

22nd May 2006, 15:21	#6
Spaced_invader Supermodder Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 493	let's say i'm a terrorist, hmmm, would i like 2 years or 20? __________________ email me: echo "'1+&9#1)+/6@)0#+/.%20" \| tr "#--/-=" a-z those that should know, know...

22nd May 2006, 16:37	#7
zr_ox Whooolapoook Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Stalking Orco Posts: 1,117	That's truely worrying! Its like Bush's speach prior to the second Invasion of Iraq - "If your not with us, your against us" What happened to freedom of speach and the liberties associated with being part of a modern western culture. Our liberties are going and governments pass laws whether you like it or not. Democracy....ehh where, our governments are trying to force feed the Democracy model to anyone living in the middle east. Hilarious since the UK, US & Europe are becoming Police States. Just saw V for Vendetta and whilst it's pretty bias, some truth's and shocking similarities lie there. Our IT support at work has been outsourced to Asia, our network is not being upgraded by the IT department but by external contractors, remote exchange servers & print servers, no administrative privelages...the list goes on. Today the General Manager came in and asked for our opinions provided it was positive. We tried to tell her how we really see things but she persisted that we must be positive, and if we have nothing positive to say we should lie! WTF! Sorry Rant over (feel free to delete if necessary admins....had to get it out) __________________ 0ptimizm :PC under review

22nd May 2006, 09:53	#2
Uno1_ Minimodder Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 43	This is worrying indeed. "We need these powers to fight terrorz0rs! And you're not a terror-person are you? If you don't give us these powers, you must be a terrorism!" As far as I can see, if they have evidence you're planning a terror attack, they don't need your damn passwords. Cause they'd already have evidence. So when would these laws get used? When they don't have evidence. And if they don't have evidence...? The law system in Britain is "supposed" to be predicated on the presumption of innocence, isn't it? But wave the terrorism flag around... I've seen quotes floating around saying that by downloading pirate mp3's you're directly funding terrorists... Don't know how that works! No doubt this law will get passed though. The only saving grace on any of this is that populations are growing to the point where monitoring everyone will be nigh impossible. Mind you though, China does a pretty damn good job, if the account in "Absurdistan" is accurate. I'm seriously tempted to run for parliament on a "Screw this, this anti-terror stuff is way out of hand, everyone's sick of it, stop saying we need the powers to screw our own citizens over in order to prevent any more terror attacks." platform. But I'd probably get locked up as a dissident.... um, I mean, terrorist! "Who else would be saying we don't need to be able to tap phone lines without a warrant? He must have something to hide! He must be a terrorism!"

22nd May 2006, 16:44	#8
specofdust Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Aberdeen, UK, EU Posts: 7,622	I really don't think this is actually going to happen. It'd really mess up certain business prospects for the UK, it'd be very complicated, and very expensive. I just don't see the government doing it(at least not if they get proper consultation from smart people first). Especially when you consider that it's not impossible(or anywhere near it) to encyrpt a secondary file ontop of the primary one. So you could encrpyt terrorist document number one, then shove a love letter ontop of that, and encrypt again. When the polizei ask you for the key, just give them the love lettes key, and bingo, they get squat. Second to that, you could just encrypt the thing so well that it was unbreakable. The best they'd be able to get you for then would be breaking the encryption laws, the punishment of which would almost certainly be lesser then any of the crimes people would have to be committing before they'd goto the lengths of encrypting stuff on a regular basis to a high level. __________________ Like marmite, only no-one hates it Mmm bop!

23rd May 2006, 18:05	#10
eddtox Supermodder Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Medway Posts: 345	One question though: If the data does indeed prove to be innocent after they have dragged you through courts and all that, will you get compensation for your troubles? It seems only rational that you would as you have been persecuted and prosecuted for no reason. Also, would a warrant be required for such requests? If not, the potential for abuse is even greater. As for the funding terrorism fiasco, would somebody kindly enlighten me regarding how someone who cannot afford £15 for a CD could possibly be funding terrorism. If that were true we'd have terrorists shooting water pistols at us (not a bad idea IMHO). -ed out

24th May 2006, 09:04	#11
Spaced_invader Supermodder Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 493	^^ specially when your downloading that mp3 for free... __________________ email me: echo "'1+&9#1)+/6@)0#+/.%20" \| tr "#--/-=" a-z those that should know, know...

24th May 2006, 12:36	#13
eddtox Supermodder Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Medway Posts: 345	"We don't know if you've done anything wrong, or ever will do, but we'll keep you in prison anyway!" Whatever happened to human rights. -ed out

24th May 2006, 12:42	#14
NetSoerfer What's a Dremel? Join Date: May 2006 Location: Isla de Muerte Posts: 5	Plausible Deniability I read an interesting comment on this somewhere, similar to what specofdust suggested. If you're looking to get around this law, make use of the principle of plausible deniability. Copy protections like TrueCrypt use a container file to store encrypted data. This container file can either be resized as necessary or given a specific size from the beginning. Now this file isn't filled with blanks after it's created, but rather with random data. Coupled with the fact that encrypted data cannot be distinguished from random data, you're all set to walk into court, give them a key they can use, and walk out without having incriminated yourself of anything illegal. Take a 100 GB container file, and think of it as a drive that only reveals its partitions if you got the right key. How would you know how many partitions it contains? If asked, you hand out key A, revealing a 85 GB partition filled with anything, like DVD backups, TV recordings, music, whatever floats your boat. You've fulfilled your duty and cannot be persecuted for withholding the key to your encrypted data. The really important data that would inciminate you is hidden in a second partition, using key B which nobody can prove exists. You can even delete it and the encrypted data can never be recovered, or even proven to exist. Voilà, the law is rendered obsolete. Besides, what are two years of jail compared to being found guilty of terrorism? Even without the above, I strongly doubt anyone would rather serve a lifetime prison for terrorism than do a fraction of the time for withholding the data. Convince me otherwise, but IMHO, this is ridiculous. By the way, what's a Dremel?

24th May 2006, 14:29	#15
specofdust Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Aberdeen, UK, EU Posts: 7,622	A dremel is a rotory tool, primarily used for cutting, but it has multiple functions. Among people who mod(modify) their PC cases and equipment, it is generally the most common and frequently the most popular tool. It provides the uses of many, many power tools, at a fraction of the price. However, obviously the functions it carries out are generally lesser then that of a dedicated power tool set. But when a set of power tools that could do the same number of things as a Dremel could cost up to £1000, and a Dremel costs £80, the choice for modders is clear __________________ Like marmite, only no-one hates it Mmm bop!

24th May 2006, 16:02	#16
NetSoerfer What's a Dremel? Join Date: May 2006 Location: Isla de Muerte Posts: 5	Oh boy... nofi, I was just kidding (because that was my first post)... Still, thanks for taking the time to explain

24th May 2006, 16:06	#17
specofdust Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Aberdeen, UK, EU Posts: 7,622	Oh, I've explained that a few times. You wouldn't believe the number of people who're new to bit-tech that seriously don't know what a Dremel is __________________ Like marmite, only no-one hates it Mmm bop!