bit-tech.net

lamboman · 9th Oct 2007, 18:18

Hey guys, I am gonna build a PC (finally!) in a couple of days, and need advice on which display to buy. Now, I know that the Samsung 226BW is amazing, but I want to spend a more reasonable amount. My budget for the whole system is around £650, and I don't want to go much above it. £680 is most likely fine. So, I have been looking at two monitors in particular, the Cibox C2201D, and the Belinea 2230S1W. They are both the same price, and they both have good reviews. I am not so good with the cheaper brands, but I would like to know if anyone has had any knowledge of these. Yes, the reviews from customers is good, but most of them don't really know what they are talking about.

Thanks!

(BTW, please don't ask how I am going to run this, my budget easily fits in an X1950XT, so I will be fine!)

EDIT: I also have realised that the 206BW (20 incher rather than 22 incher) is the same price as the above two, and the LG 22 incher is £5 more. God I need to revise more prices! Should I go for the LG? (225WT that is). I am trusting it to be excellent, like most other LG displays.

Surfer_Dude_Joey · 9th Oct 2007, 18:23

As I just found out..
Dont get a 22" as their arnt good quality..
Get a 20" or 24" dude..
[Joey]

lamboman · 9th Oct 2007, 18:27

Why are they bad quality? Are the panels in general bad? I really want the extra size though.

EDIT: Just read your thread. But still, any recommendations?

Krazeh · 9th Oct 2007, 18:48

Ya can get a 226BW from microdirect for 211.49. Have just bought one myself and it's really nice. Not sure what the comments about 22" monitors being bad quality are about, from what i've seen the 226BW consistently scored high in reviews and having used one I have no concerns about quality.

lamboman · 9th Oct 2007, 18:51

I forgot that people kept saying that 22 inch monitors had bad colour and varied results. Now I am looking at 20 inchers, they seem much better value, but if any of the 22 inchers I have selected are decent, or you see others, please let me know!

lamboman · 9th Oct 2007, 19:35

At the moment I am really struggling to find a 20 inch monitor that is cheaper and doesn't have a TN panel, they all do at the moment. I think that I might go for a widescreen 19 incher, which is £50 less, without all the issues. But, again, please inform me if you know of any 20 inch TN free displays.

Bbq.of.DooM · 9th Oct 2007, 20:31

I like the Acer AL2223W.

E.E.L. Ambiense · 9th Oct 2007, 20:38

Just don't get a Scepter and you'll be golden.

Nothing but problems with my 22" TN one.

Seriously, I have one of Dell's UltraSharp 2005FPW 20". Really good monitor and a really good panel in it. Quality pwns size any day. I'd look around and see what you can find. Check reviews/etc, see what the general consensus is on it and make a decision.

lamboman · 9th Oct 2007, 21:32

OK, I think that I will probably try and save some money and buy a 19 inch LG or Samsung instead. I think that extra resolution is not really needed by me, a 19 inch will seem huge anyway (got a 15 inch at the moment!).

Thanks for the feedback guys!

kenco_uk · 9th Oct 2007, 21:51

Samsung 20" 2ms Silver Wirescreen LCD TFT on Special Offer at autdirect for £190! Awaiting stock, but it's a good price!

lamboman · 10th Oct 2007, 05:43

I was looking at that yesterday. Ebuyer have the same model at £177 or something like that. But, it looks like a good display. Seems like all the displays now are TN. Oh well, I think that I will just have to buy one and play around with the colour settings a lot.

WILD9 · 10th Oct 2007, 14:44

There is absolutely nothing wrong with 22" monitors, some people just dont understand what people are saying when they reccomend a 20" over a 22". Its all about the type of panel used in the display, 22" monitors all use TN panels which are the cheapest to produce and generally have the fastest response times but are a bit less accurate with colours and have lower viewing angles than the P/MVA and S-IPS pannels that you can get in 20" and 24" monitors. That said some 20" and 24" monitors also have TN panels and in this scenario are no better than any 22". Monitors based on non TN technologies will also in almost all cases cost more than TN panels. going down to 19" wont help you either as 90% of 19" monitors also use TN panels. I have a TN panel, a 22" widescreen, samsung 223bw, its the slightly cheaper version of the 226 mentioned above and uses the same panel and I find it absolutely cracking, currently samsung produce arguably the best range of 22" monitors. The short of it is, If you want a good big monitor for a fair price to use for day to day stuff like browsing,games,films etc and you sit directly infron of the screen then a 22" widescreen, preferably a samsung will be a superb choice. If you want to use it to watch movies from the far side of the room at an angle or do important colour sensitive graphics work on it then stump up the extra and drop to a 20" or even more to jump up to a 24" dell do both these for a fair price with decent non TN panels in.

E.E.L. Ambiense · 10th Oct 2007, 15:41

Not sure if this is allowed (if it's not please delete and ignore this kind Mods...

), but there's a sticky at [H] about the different panels. Great for referencing when shopping for a new display. Pasted here and edited/reformatted a bit...some info may be older...

-------------------------------------

TFT Technology Breakdown and Model/Panel Index

LCD Panel Technology Type and Characteristics

TN film (Twisted Nematic)
- low manufacturing/retail costs
- restrictive viewing angles
- fast pixel response times
- dead pixels display white. Stuck pixels display RGB colors
- lower contrast levels means blacks are not as dark as VA based panels
- lower color reproduction

IPS (In Plane Switching)
- improved viewing angles over TN
- very good color reproduction
- slower pixel response times than TN
- dead pixels display black
- lower contrast levels means blacks are not as dark as VA based panels

Super-IPS (S-IPS)
- same as IPS except ...
- likely best color reproduction of all TFT
- less expensive to produce than IPS
- improved pixel response

VA (Vertical Alignment) Technologies

MVA (Multidomain Vertical Alignment)
- compromise between TN and IPS technologies
- superior color reproduction over TN but not as good as IPS
- very good viewing angles but less than IPS
- higher contrast than TN or S-IPS means very good blacks
- dead pixels are black
- slower pixel response than TN or IPS
- details can be lost when directly viewing dark areas

Premium-MVA (P-MVA)
- same as MVA except ...
- "overdrive" technology increases pixel response but still slower than TN
- may have slightly degraded color reproduction due to "overdrive" process

PVA (Patterned VA)
- same as MVA except ...
- larger viewing angles
- higher contrast levels means darkest blacks

Super-PVA (S-PVA)
- same as PVA except ...
- “Magic Speed” (the Samsung equivalent to Overdrive) improves pixel response
- slightly improved color reproduction
- slightly improved viewing angles

Purchasing Considerations

TN Gamers
Considered a "gamers" panel due to it's fast pixel response times which reduces trailing images know as "ghosting". However, this advantage has been reduced by new technologies to accelerate pixel response times in other panel types. Colors and contrast tend to be weak and blacks are not truly dark. Viewing angles are significantly limited. However, monitors based on this technology tend to be inexpensive.

IPS / S-IPS Graphics Work or Web Browsing
Considered to have the best color reproduction of all panel types, these panels are well suited for graphics work or web browsing. Pixel response time is also good but slower than the TN "gamers" panel. Contast and blacks are also less dark than VA panels but viewing angles are excellent.

MVA / P-MVA / PVA / S-PVA Compromise for All-Around Use
These panels are a compromise between the fast pixel response times of the TN panel and the excellent color reproduction of the IPS panels. Contrast and blacks are best of all the panel types. Viewing angles are similar but slightly inferior to IPS.

Model/Panel Index

Acer
Acer AL1951Cs - 19" TN Film
Acer AL1916ws - 19" WS TN Film
Acer AL2016ws - 20" WS Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN Film
Acer AL2032wa - 20" WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M201EW01 V0) OR LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01)

BenQ
BenQ FP202W - 20" WS Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN Film

Dell
Dell 1905FP - 19" Samsung PVA (LTM190E4-L02) or AU Optronics P-MVA (M190EN03 V0)
Dell 1907FP - 19" TN Film
Dell 2001FP - 20" LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201U04)
Dell 2005FPW - 20" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01)
Dell 2007WFP - 20" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01)
Dell 2007FP - 20" LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201U04)
Dell 2405FPW - 24" WS Samsung PVA (LTM240M1-L01)
Dell 2407WFP - 24" WS Samsung S-PVA (LM201W01)
Dell 3007WFP - 30" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)

Gateway
Gateway FPD2185W - 21" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM210M2)

HP
HP F2105 - 21" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM210M2)

Hyundai
Hyundai L90D+ - 19" Samsung TN (LTM190EX-L01)

NEC
NEC LCD20WGX2 - 20" LG.Philips AS-IPS (LM201W01)

Sceptre
Sceptre X20G Naga II 16ms 20" P-MVA
Sceptre X20G Naga II - 20" WS P-MVA

Samsung
Samsung 930B - 19" Samsung TN Film
Samsung 940B - 19" Samsung TN Film
Samsung 940T - 19" Samsung PVA (LTM190E4)
Samsung 940MW - 19"WS Samsung TN Film (LTM190M2)
Samsung 204B - 20" Samsung TN Film (LTM201UX)
Samsung 215TW - 21" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM210M2)
Samsung 244T - 24" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM240M2)

ViewSonic
ViewSonic VA1912W - 19" WS Chi Mei Optoelectronics TN Film (M190A1)
ViewSonic VP912B - 19" AU Optronics TN Film (M190EN04 V1)
Viewsonic VX922 - 19" AU Optronics TN Film (M190EN04)
Viewsonic VX924 - 19" AU Optronics TN Film (M190EN04 V5)
ViewSonic VP920 - 19" TN Film
ViewSonic VP930 - 19" AU Optronics P-MVA (M190EG01 V0)
ViewSonic VA1912W - 19" WS Chi Mei Optoelectronics TN Film (M190A1)
ViewSonic VA2012WB - 20" WS Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN Film
ViewSonic VX2025WM - 20" WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M201EW01 V0)

Much of this information gathered from TFT Central.

-------------------------------------

lamboman · 10th Oct 2007, 17:16

Wow, thanks, great find!

-VK- · 11th Oct 2007, 13:16

Really helpful.

Thanks!

kenco_uk · 11th Oct 2007, 14:13

TBH, that needs stickying somewhere.

9th Oct 2007, 18:18	#1
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	Which 22 incher for £180 (approx) Hey guys, I am gonna build a PC (finally!) in a couple of days, and need advice on which display to buy. Now, I know that the Samsung 226BW is amazing, but I want to spend a more reasonable amount. My budget for the whole system is around £650, and I don't want to go much above it. £680 is most likely fine. So, I have been looking at two monitors in particular, the Cibox C2201D, and the Belinea 2230S1W. They are both the same price, and they both have good reviews. I am not so good with the cheaper brands, but I would like to know if anyone has had any knowledge of these. Yes, the reviews from customers is good, but most of them don't really know what they are talking about. Thanks! (BTW, please don't ask how I am going to run this, my budget easily fits in an X1950XT, so I will be fine!) EDIT: I also have realised that the 206BW (20 incher rather than 22 incher) is the same price as the above two, and the LG 22 incher is £5 more. God I need to revise more prices! Should I go for the LG? (225WT that is). I am trusting it to be excellent, like most other LG displays. Last edited by lamboman; 9th Oct 2007 at 18:24.

9th Oct 2007, 18:23	#2
Surfer_Dude_Joey Minimodder Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Essex Posts: 47	As I just found out.. Dont get a 22" as their arnt good quality.. Get a 20" or 24" dude.. [Joey] __________________ - Intel Conroe e6750 2.6Ghz- 4gb DDR2 5300 - Gigabyte 8800GT 512 Turbo (700Mhz/1900Mhz) - 22" Samsung Syncmaster - Creative X-Fi - Tannoy Reveal 6D Studio Monitors -

9th Oct 2007, 18:48	#4
Krazeh I am a Dremel Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Manchester Posts: 1,728	Ya can get a 226BW from microdirect for 211.49. Have just bought one myself and it's really nice. Not sure what the comments about 22" monitors being bad quality are about, from what i've seen the 226BW consistently scored high in reviews and having used one I have no concerns about quality. __________________ "My name is don don I am pretty elephant Love me well!"

9th Oct 2007, 20:31	#7
Bbq.of.DooM Custom User Title Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,477	I like the Acer AL2223W. __________________ Wowomg!!

9th Oct 2007, 20:38	#8
E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Palm Bay, FL Posts: 2,927	Just don't get a Scepter and you'll be golden. Nothing but problems with my 22" TN one. Seriously, I have one of Dell's UltraSharp 2005FPW 20". Really good monitor and a really good panel in it. Quality pwns size any day. I'd look around and see what you can find. Check reviews/etc, see what the general consensus is on it and make a decision. __________________ Latest Builds: LilyPC - in progress • BIO-A10 - MotM Jul. '12 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • "Movie Sign!" - in progress • CheckMate - MotM May '09 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • BluBawx I - MotY '09 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • Lumière Noire - MotM Apr. '08 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • NOTalis w/ MNPCTech • "Building Better Worlds" - MotM Feb. '08 ~~Nominee~~ Loser!

bit-tech.net

Site Links

Our Other Sites

9th Oct 2007, 18:27	#3
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	Why are they bad quality? Are the panels in general bad? I really want the extra size though. EDIT: Just read your thread. But still, any recommendations?

9th Oct 2007, 18:51	#5
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	I forgot that people kept saying that 22 inch monitors had bad colour and varied results. Now I am looking at 20 inchers, they seem much better value, but if any of the 22 inchers I have selected are decent, or you see others, please let me know!

9th Oct 2007, 19:35	#6
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	At the moment I am really struggling to find a 20 inch monitor that is cheaper and doesn't have a TN panel, they all do at the moment. I think that I might go for a widescreen 19 incher, which is £50 less, without all the issues. But, again, please inform me if you know of any 20 inch TN free displays.

9th Oct 2007, 21:32	#9
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	OK, I think that I will probably try and save some money and buy a 19 inch LG or Samsung instead. I think that extra resolution is not really needed by me, a 19 inch will seem huge anyway (got a 15 inch at the moment!). Thanks for the feedback guys!

9th Oct 2007, 21:51	#10
kenco_uk I unsuccessfully then tried again Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bourne, Lincolnshire, UK Posts: 9,066	Samsung 20" 2ms Silver Wirescreen LCD TFT on Special Offer at autdirect for £190! Awaiting stock, but it's a good price! __________________ Mac:Macbook Pro 7,1 w/Samsung 830 256GB, ML xbmc:Windows 8 x64, Fractal Design Node 304, MSI Z77IA-E53, G2120 fanless, 2x2GB, 3TB, Samsung 830 256GB dazzypops:Win8Prox64, i5-2500k@4.3, 8GB, 4TB, Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, MSI GTX660 (+110core, +535mem), LG IPS 24", Z5400 5.1 Put my hands behind my head, crouch down and fall forwards - that's how I roll.

10th Oct 2007, 05:43	#11
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	I was looking at that yesterday. Ebuyer have the same model at £177 or something like that. But, it looks like a good display. Seems like all the displays now are TN. Oh well, I think that I will just have to buy one and play around with the colour settings a lot.

10th Oct 2007, 14:44	#12
WILD9 Been here aaaaages Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cheltenham, UK Posts: 574	There is absolutely nothing wrong with 22" monitors, some people just dont understand what people are saying when they reccomend a 20" over a 22". Its all about the type of panel used in the display, 22" monitors all use TN panels which are the cheapest to produce and generally have the fastest response times but are a bit less accurate with colours and have lower viewing angles than the P/MVA and S-IPS pannels that you can get in 20" and 24" monitors. That said some 20" and 24" monitors also have TN panels and in this scenario are no better than any 22". Monitors based on non TN technologies will also in almost all cases cost more than TN panels. going down to 19" wont help you either as 90% of 19" monitors also use TN panels. I have a TN panel, a 22" widescreen, samsung 223bw, its the slightly cheaper version of the 226 mentioned above and uses the same panel and I find it absolutely cracking, currently samsung produce arguably the best range of 22" monitors. The short of it is, If you want a good big monitor for a fair price to use for day to day stuff like browsing,games,films etc and you sit directly infron of the screen then a 22" widescreen, preferably a samsung will be a superb choice. If you want to use it to watch movies from the far side of the room at an angle or do important colour sensitive graphics work on it then stump up the extra and drop to a 20" or even more to jump up to a 24" dell do both these for a fair price with decent non TN panels in. __________________ i5 750 @ 4Ghz \| Asus P755P55D-E Evo \| Megahalem & Akasa Apache \| 4GB XMS3 \| XFX 5850 \| 320GB Samsung F1 \| Silverstone TJ07 \| Samsung 22" 223BW

10th Oct 2007, 15:41	#13
E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Palm Bay, FL Posts: 2,927	Not sure if this is allowed (if it's not please delete and ignore this kind Mods...), but there's a sticky at [H] about the different panels. Great for referencing when shopping for a new display. Pasted here and edited/reformatted a bit...some info may be older... ------------------------------------- TFT Technology Breakdown and Model/Panel Index LCD Panel Technology Type and Characteristics TN film (Twisted Nematic) - low manufacturing/retail costs - restrictive viewing angles - fast pixel response times - dead pixels display white. Stuck pixels display RGB colors - lower contrast levels means blacks are not as dark as VA based panels - lower color reproduction IPS (In Plane Switching) - improved viewing angles over TN - very good color reproduction - slower pixel response times than TN - dead pixels display black - lower contrast levels means blacks are not as dark as VA based panels Super-IPS (S-IPS) - same as IPS except ... - likely best color reproduction of all TFT - less expensive to produce than IPS - improved pixel response VA (Vertical Alignment) Technologies MVA (Multidomain Vertical Alignment) - compromise between TN and IPS technologies - superior color reproduction over TN but not as good as IPS - very good viewing angles but less than IPS - higher contrast than TN or S-IPS means very good blacks - dead pixels are black - slower pixel response than TN or IPS - details can be lost when directly viewing dark areas Premium-MVA (P-MVA) - same as MVA except ... - "overdrive" technology increases pixel response but still slower than TN - may have slightly degraded color reproduction due to "overdrive" process PVA (Patterned VA) - same as MVA except ... - larger viewing angles - higher contrast levels means darkest blacks Super-PVA (S-PVA) - same as PVA except ... - “Magic Speed” (the Samsung equivalent to Overdrive) improves pixel response - slightly improved color reproduction - slightly improved viewing angles Purchasing Considerations TN Gamers Considered a "gamers" panel due to it's fast pixel response times which reduces trailing images know as "ghosting". However, this advantage has been reduced by new technologies to accelerate pixel response times in other panel types. Colors and contrast tend to be weak and blacks are not truly dark. Viewing angles are significantly limited. However, monitors based on this technology tend to be inexpensive. IPS / S-IPS Graphics Work or Web Browsing Considered to have the best color reproduction of all panel types, these panels are well suited for graphics work or web browsing. Pixel response time is also good but slower than the TN "gamers" panel. Contast and blacks are also less dark than VA panels but viewing angles are excellent. MVA / P-MVA / PVA / S-PVA Compromise for All-Around Use These panels are a compromise between the fast pixel response times of the TN panel and the excellent color reproduction of the IPS panels. Contrast and blacks are best of all the panel types. Viewing angles are similar but slightly inferior to IPS. Model/Panel Index Acer Acer AL1951Cs - 19" TN Film Acer AL1916ws - 19" WS TN Film Acer AL2016ws - 20" WS Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN Film Acer AL2032wa - 20" WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M201EW01 V0) OR LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01) BenQ BenQ FP202W - 20" WS Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN Film Dell Dell 1905FP - 19" Samsung PVA (LTM190E4-L02) or AU Optronics P-MVA (M190EN03 V0) Dell 1907FP - 19" TN Film Dell 2001FP - 20" LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201U04) Dell 2005FPW - 20" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01) Dell 2007WFP - 20" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01) Dell 2007FP - 20" LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201U04) Dell 2405FPW - 24" WS Samsung PVA (LTM240M1-L01) Dell 2407WFP - 24" WS Samsung S-PVA (LM201W01) Dell 3007WFP - 30" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01) Gateway Gateway FPD2185W - 21" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM210M2) HP HP F2105 - 21" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM210M2) Hyundai Hyundai L90D+ - 19" Samsung TN (LTM190EX-L01) NEC NEC LCD20WGX2 - 20" LG.Philips AS-IPS (LM201W01) Sceptre Sceptre X20G Naga II 16ms 20" P-MVA Sceptre X20G Naga II - 20" WS P-MVA Samsung Samsung 930B - 19" Samsung TN Film Samsung 940B - 19" Samsung TN Film Samsung 940T - 19" Samsung PVA (LTM190E4) Samsung 940MW - 19"WS Samsung TN Film (LTM190M2) Samsung 204B - 20" Samsung TN Film (LTM201UX) Samsung 215TW - 21" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM210M2) Samsung 244T - 24" WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM240M2) ViewSonic ViewSonic VA1912W - 19" WS Chi Mei Optoelectronics TN Film (M190A1) ViewSonic VP912B - 19" AU Optronics TN Film (M190EN04 V1) Viewsonic VX922 - 19" AU Optronics TN Film (M190EN04) Viewsonic VX924 - 19" AU Optronics TN Film (M190EN04 V5) ViewSonic VP920 - 19" TN Film ViewSonic VP930 - 19" AU Optronics P-MVA (M190EG01 V0) ViewSonic VA1912W - 19" WS Chi Mei Optoelectronics TN Film (M190A1) ViewSonic VA2012WB - 20" WS Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN Film ViewSonic VX2025WM - 20" WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M201EW01 V0) Much of this information gathered from TFT Central. ------------------------------------- __________________ Latest Builds: LilyPC - in progress • BIO-A10 - MotM Jul. '12 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • "Movie Sign!" - in progress • CheckMate - MotM May '09 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • BluBawx I - MotY '09 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • Lumière Noire - MotM Apr. '08 ~~Nominee~~ Loser! • NOTalis w/ MNPCTech • "Building Better Worlds" - MotM Feb. '08 ~~Nominee~~ Loser!

10th Oct 2007, 17:16	#14
lamboman I am a Dremel Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,509	Wow, thanks, great find!

11th Oct 2007, 13:16	#15
-VK- Lurker Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: UK Posts: 177	Really helpful. Thanks!

11th Oct 2007, 14:13	#16
kenco_uk I unsuccessfully then tried again Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bourne, Lincolnshire, UK Posts: 9,066	TBH, that needs stickying somewhere. __________________ Mac:Macbook Pro 7,1 w/Samsung 830 256GB, ML xbmc:Windows 8 x64, Fractal Design Node 304, MSI Z77IA-E53, G2120 fanless, 2x2GB, 3TB, Samsung 830 256GB dazzypops:Win8Prox64, i5-2500k@4.3, 8GB, 4TB, Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, MSI GTX660 (+110core, +535mem), LG IPS 24", Z5400 5.1 Put my hands behind my head, crouch down and fall forwards - that's how I roll.