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Old 23rd Jul 2010, 13:10   #121
javaman
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Originally Posted by Da_Rude_Baboon View Post
That's a real chicken and egg scenario though. Before the ten commandments i'm sure, killing stealing, rape and coveting your neighbours ass wasn't acceptable social etiquette.

My feelings on religion are it served two prime functions. One it helped to explain things we did not understand. Two it helped to control the population before you had a effective police force and the fear of the invisible being who see's everything and will exact a punishment on you when your dead helped to mitigate the "survival of the fittest". Its very convenient that you get punished or rewarded when your dead as dead people don't come back to tell you if its true or not.

The belief that without religion you can not have a strong sense of morals is the main thing that annoys me about religion. Its like apple claiming they invented the shuffle feature.
+1 to the last statement. I know a lot of people with stronger morals than so called "Christains".

This is off topic so I don't really want to dwell but felt it needed a response.
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Its very convenient that you get punished or rewarded when your dead as dead people don't come back to tell you if its true or not.
Look back at the bible like the isrealites being led through the desert by a pillar of fire by night. Even the miracles Jesus performed. With such a visible showing God's power yet people still chose not to believe. Do you think someone coming back to warn everyone would really of changed their minds? Obviously there is a choice to believe which is made harder due to relying on handed down accounts and human nature to further ones self but personally I donno. People seem to need to see things personally yet even when you show them they can choose to ignore I think sums up what im trying to say. Take Jobs and the iphone4 (cheap dig but first example I could think of xD)
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Old 23rd Jul 2010, 13:56   #122
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I dont think its too bad, I mean what are they going to have on their face if they are up to no good? A massive devious grin? It may be anti-social but its part of ones freedom to be anti-social if they want to be, as long as they arent hurting anybody.

The only way it improves security is that people wanted by the police can hide easier.
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Old 23rd Jul 2010, 14:12   #123
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Originally Posted by MacWalka View Post
Well if your going to talk about pagan laws, you were allowed to enact revenge on people that had slighted you in Rome for example. Some religions and hence countries that adopt their teachings still allow things like this. Such as honour killings being allowed in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

I'd say our legal system and laws track the 10 commandments and teachings of Jesus more than any other teachings. Previously, religion was used to control people and prevent chaos. Now because in general people have a strong moral compass that came from generations of religious teachings, it doesn't matter whether you are Christian, you already know right from wrong. In my opinion, without Christianity, our society would still be a case of 'survival of the fittest'.
Don't confuse the Ten Commandments, which are Old Testament law, with Christian New Testament law. Under Old Testament law you could stone people to death for infractions like adultery, and you had the Biblical "An Eye for an Eye" principle of retribution. You could keep slaves, lie with them non-consensually, and invade other countries and massacre its people, and even break covenants with God's permission. In fact, its laws were pretty much the same as Islamic laws (not surprising; they came from the same gene pool, so to speak). Old Testament law, like Sharia law, was frontier law: it was about keeping societal order and maintaining the status quo through the very credible promise of swift and matched retribution. And it was self-serving to the ruler.

People had a moral compass well before religion came along. Animals that live in groups have some sort of moral compass (we call it "inclusive fitness"): laboratory experiments found that a rat will not eat food if it sees another rat getting hurt (e.g. through an electric shock) as a consequence. Two year old humans show altruistic motivations. Morals were there first. Religion was garnish.

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+1 to the last statement. I know a lot of people with stronger morals than so called "Christains".

This is off topic so I don't really want to dwell but felt it needed a response.
Look back at the bible like the isrealites being led through the desert by a pillar of fire by night. Even the miracles Jesus performed. With such a visible showing God's power yet people still chose not to believe. Do you think someone coming back to warn everyone would really of changed their minds? Obviously there is a choice to believe which is made harder due to relying on handed down accounts and human nature to further ones self but personally I donno. People seem to need to see things personally yet even when you show them they can choose to ignore I think sums up what im trying to say. Take Jobs and the iphone4 (cheap dig but first example I could think of xD)
The pillar of fire and Jesus' miracles are basically stories. People often have to see with their own eyes to believe. Even then how they chose to interpret what they see can differ widely depending on their previous knowledge, beliefs, attributions, feelings and motivations. One man's miracle is another man's coincidence, or even obvious natural causality at work. Again, think of iPhone 4's antennagate. Think of 9/11 consipracy stories. YMMV.

Moreover people are perfectly able to keep two conflicting beliefs or viewpoints in their heads. In the olden days people truly believed in God because they had no other explanation for the Universe. That didn't stop them from being deceitful, greedy, selfish, immoral or just plain cruel. The smarter ones even managed to integrate such behaviour within a religious framework of beliefs.
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Old 24th Jul 2010, 14:22   #124
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Don't confuse the Ten Commandments, which are Old Testament law, with Christian New Testament law. Under Old Testament law you could stone people to death for infractions like adultery, and you had the Biblical "An Eye for an Eye" principle of retribution. You could keep slaves, lie with them non-consensually, and invade other countries and massacre its people, and even break covenants with God's permission. In fact, its laws were pretty much the same as Islamic laws (not surprising; they came from the same gene pool, so to speak). Old Testament law, like Sharia law, was frontier law: it was about keeping societal order and maintaining the status quo through the very credible promise of swift and matched retribution. And it was self-serving to the ruler.

People had a moral compass well before religion came along. Animals that live in groups have some sort of moral compass (we call it "inclusive fitness"): laboratory experiments found that a rat will not eat food if it sees another rat getting hurt (e.g. through an electric shock) as a consequence. Two year old humans show altruistic motivations. Morals were there first. Religion was garnish.


The pillar of fire and Jesus' miracles are basically stories. People often have to see with their own eyes to believe. Even then how they chose to interpret what they see can differ widely depending on their previous knowledge, beliefs, attributions, feelings and motivations. One man's miracle is another man's coincidence, or even obvious natural causality at work. Again, think of iPhone 4's antennagate. Think of 9/11 consipracy stories. YMMV.

Moreover people are perfectly able to keep two conflicting beliefs or viewpoints in their heads. In the olden days people truly believed in God because they had no other explanation for the Universe. That didn't stop them from being deceitful, greedy, selfish, immoral or just plain cruel. The smarter ones even managed to integrate such behaviour within a religious framework of beliefs.
Nexxo I said our laws are based on the ten Commandments AND the teachings of Jesus. Yes people had morals before religion, bit not to the same extent we have now. For example, disabled people, people with diseases etc were until recently ostracised from society. It is still a problem but in my opinion there is more "care" given to disabled and diseased people in western countries though this may be due to having more wealth.

Survival of the fittest was a very strong concept up until Christianity became popular. Hence why tribe leaders etc were the best warriors, infertile women were ostracised etc etc. Like I said previously, our laws are based on punishment, rehabilitation and forgiveness. It doesn't always work like that in real life but to say our laws would be the same as they are now without Christianity is naive to say the least. Our modern moral compass still tracks very closely to what Christianity teaches.
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Old 24th Jul 2010, 14:44   #125
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Originally Posted by MacWalka View Post
Nexxo I said our laws are based on the ten Commandments AND the teachings of Jesus. Yes people had morals before religion, bit not to the same extent we have now. For example, disabled people, people with diseases etc were until recently ostracised from society. It is still a problem but in my opinion there is more "care" given to disabled and diseased people in western countries though this may be due to having more wealth.
Again, not true. We have archeological evidence going back to the Stone Age of people looking after their elderly, frail and disabled. We have found graves of severely ill and disabled people who nonetheless lived to a ripe old age that they could not have achieved without considerable assistance from their tribe.

Other non-Christian cultures look after their frail, elderly and disabled too. This may be shaped by their own religious and philosophical beliefs, but is basically motivated by the functional considerations that tribes look after their own.

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Survival of the fittest was a very strong concept up until Christianity became popular. Hence why tribe leaders etc were the best warriors, infertile women were ostracised etc etc. Like I said previously, our laws are based on punishment, rehabilitation and forgiveness. It doesn't always work like that in real life but to say our laws would be the same as they are now without Christianity is naive to say the least. Our modern moral compass still tracks very closely to what Christianity teaches.
It was not a concept --it was natural necessity. Tribal leaders needed to be strong, but they also needed to be good leaders --else they were just warriors. Infertile women were not ostracised, because they still had important household and child rearing functions (having kids was easy. Getting them to survive to adulthood is the tricky part). This is also why grannies were considered an important resource --all that parental experience was valued.

Confucianism advocates a filial duty to your fellow man and rehabilitation for offenders. Taoism and Buddhism advocate harmonious living. Many cultures and religions share the same idea(l)s. We have 'civilisation' as we know it in countries that are not Christian. Look at the Far East, for instance.

I think that you are operating from some vague ideas and stories without any real historical, anthropological or philosophical knowledge. To say that Christianity has a lease on wisdom and humanity is presumptuous. If it hadn't shaped our societal laws, another religion would have done so with quite similar results.
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Old 24th Jul 2010, 15:24   #126
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Again, not true. We have archeological evidence going back to the Stone Age of people looking after their elderly, frail and disabled. We have found graves of severely ill and disabled people who nonetheless lived to a ripe old age that they could not have achieved without considerable assistance from their tribe.

Other non-Christian cultures look after their frail, elderly and disabled too. This may be shaped by their own religious and philosophical beliefs, but is basically motivated by the functional considerations that tribes look after their own.


It was not a concept --it was natural necessity. Tribal leaders needed to be strong, but they also needed to be good leaders --else they were just warriors. Infertile women were not ostracised, because they still had important household and child rearing functions (having kids was easy. Getting them to survive to adulthood is the tricky part). This is also why grannies were considered an important resource --all that parental experience was valued.

Confucianism advocates a filial duty to your fellow man and rehabilitation for offenders. Taoism and Buddhism advocate harmonious living. Many cultures and religions share the same idea(l)s. We have 'civilisation' as we know it in countries that are not Christian. Look at the Far East, for instance.

I think that you are operating from some vague ideas and stories without any real historical, anthropological or philosophical knowledge. To say that Christianity has a lease on wisdom and humanity is presumptuous. If it hadn't shaped our societal laws, another religion would have done so with quite similar results.
Nexxo you keep putting words in my mouth that I'm not saying. My point is that the laws of the UK justice system and in general the moral compass of the UK is based on the Bible. I'm not saying Christianity has a monopoly on all wisdom etc. BUT in historically Christian countries, the law of the land is based on the Bible. Similarly, the laws in the likes of Saudi Arabia are based on Islam. Look at China for instance-no religion allowed and an appaling human rights record.

I'm not saying that Christianity 'owns' wisdom. I'm saying that Christianity shaped our society and that if it wasn't for Christianity, our laws would be different. Not better, not worse just different.
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Old 24th Jul 2010, 19:32   #127
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Again, not true. We have archeological evidence going back to the Stone Age of people looking after their elderly, frail and disabled. We have found graves of severely ill and disabled people who nonetheless lived to a ripe old age that they could not have achieved without considerable assistance from their tribe.

Other non-Christian cultures look after their frail, elderly and disabled too. This may be shaped by their own religious and philosophical beliefs, but is basically motivated by the functional considerations that tribes look after their own.


It was not a concept --it was natural necessity. Tribal leaders needed to be strong, but they also needed to be good leaders --else they were just warriors. Infertile women were not ostracised, because they still had important household and child rearing functions (having kids was easy. Getting them to survive to adulthood is the tricky part). This is also why grannies were considered an important resource --all that parental experience was valued.

Confucianism advocates a filial duty to your fellow man and rehabilitation for offenders. Taoism and Buddhism advocate harmonious living. Many cultures and religions share the same idea(l)s. We have 'civilisation' as we know it in countries that are not Christian. Look at the Far East, for instance.

I think that you are operating from some vague ideas and stories without any real historical, anthropological or philosophical knowledge. To say that Christianity has a lease on wisdom and humanity is presumptuous. If it hadn't shaped our societal laws, another religion would have done so with quite similar results.
what's interesting is you see the same things spread out across the world.. archeologists find old drawings in stone they can't figure out, someone did research on shaman based cultures today and found it probably comes from a shamans time in the spirit world (I know freaky)

but who knows for sure with the bones.. my money is on a gang bang gone bad- like a elephant got tired of the noise

far as the christian values influence on our way of law.. that's pretty much fact

buddism is more of a way to live your life and coping.. same with tao but when talking about rehabilitation- all belief can change people and you don't need to put them on a horse and feed them barbecue chicken for that to happen.. and it doesn't have to be a syrian prison either.. besides some people are all about causing havoc

*edit I should add too- that's what got me thinking about posting in here.. I talked to my pops yesterday on the phone and I really think he's a good representation of a lot of the core conservatives

he said he will not friend a foreign muslim under any circumstances because they will lie and steal from anyone who is not muslim.. I guess recently he ran into someone in his own words 'looked like osama bin laden' and the guy asked him if it was going to stop raining

my pops said 'how the hell would I know' lol I dunno thought it was funny.. I guess you have to know my pops

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Old 24th Jul 2010, 20:28   #128
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Nexxo you keep putting words in my mouth that I'm not saying. My point is that the laws of the UK justice system and in general the moral compass of the UK is based on the Bible. I'm not saying Christianity has a monopoly on all wisdom etc. BUT in historically Christian countries, the law of the land is based on the Bible. Similarly, the laws in the likes of Saudi Arabia are based on Islam. Look at China for instance-no religion allowed and an appaling human rights record.
No, but you seem to be implying that it has a monopoly on morality:

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At the very least, regardless of whether you believe in Christ or not, the religion gave our society a good grounding in morality and law that has exisited to this day.
European society in B.C. was, as I said, quite sophisticated. Women had (almost equal) rights. There were complex laws about property, social conduct and compensation for slights. The Roman occupation brought more societal infrastructure (yes, it's that "What did the Romans ever do for us?" sketch) and therefore legal frameworks. Let me be very clear on this: Western European law, and as a consequence U.S. law, is heavily based on classical Roman law (in its turn based on classical Greek law). The Justinian Code served as a basis for legal practice in continental Europe, as well as in Ethiopia, Japan, and most former colonies of European nations, including Latin America. Why do you think there are so many Latin terms in law?

Forget Christianity. Roman law covered it all, from laws on property and possession, to commercial and labour contracts, to marriage rights, to civil law, public law and criminal law. More significantly, since the Law of the Twelve Tables, dating from mid-fifth century BC, it was distinctly secular and separated from religion. The whole way litigation works in modern practice, with the defendant being entitled to know the charge and evidence levelled against him and having a right to defend himself (through a process of examination notably inspired by Socratic dialogue), and habeus corpus which protects against unlawful detention, all comes straight from Roman law.

To equate China's appalling human rights record with their atheist government is just plain silly. China has a poor human rights record because it is a dictatorship. Most countries that label themselves as "Communist" are. There are also plenty of South American dictatorships with a distinctly Catholic culture that have equally poor human rights records. Augusto Pinochet's Chile was Roman Catholic. The military Junta of Argentinia was Catholic. There are Muslim dictatorships with poor human rights records also: Iran is staunchly Muslim, and so is Taliban Afghanistan. The issue is not whether the government has a religious ideology or not. The issue is whether it forbids any form of culture or ideology that it sees as a threat (several countries outlaw Communism, for instance). The only difference between Communist China and Taliban Afghanistan is that China forbids one religion more than the other does.

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I'm not saying that Christianity 'owns' wisdom. I'm saying that Christianity shaped our society and that if it wasn't for Christianity, our laws would be different. Not better, not worse just different.
That is not what you were saying before:
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Well if your going to talk about pagan laws, you were allowed to enact revenge on people that had slighted you in Rome for example. Some religions and hence countries that adopt their teachings still allow things like this. Such as honour killings being allowed in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

I'd say our legal system and laws track the 10 commandments and teachings of Jesus more than any other teachings. Previously, religion was used to control people and prevent chaos. Now because in general people have a strong moral compass that came from generations of religious teachings, it doesn't matter whether you are Christian, you already know right from wrong. In my opinion, without Christianity, our society would still be a case of 'survival of the fittest'.
You are saying: without Christianity we would not have proper laws and morals. We would be like those other countries, that are barbaric and primitive.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are seeing everything through ethnocentric glasses. Pakistan has honour killings, but here two women are killed every week by an abusive partner or ex-partner. In many cases they had approached the police for help. While we decry the imprisonment and threatened stoning of a woman accused of adultery in Iran, we also have 30.000 people posting on the Raoul Moat Tribute Facebook page. You know, the guy who shot his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend. And a police officer on the side.

As little as 100 years ago English Common Law stated it was acceptable for a man to beat his wife with a whip or stick as long as it was no bigger than the width of his thumb. Historically, man’s power and domination over his wife was legitimized. This enabled men to use violence and threats of violence to control her, as women at that time were seen as the property of their husbands and were not even considered a “person” under the law until the suffragette movement in the early twentieth century. Barbarians, aren't we all?
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 02:26   #129
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he said he will not friend a foreign muslim under any circumstances because they will lie and steal from anyone who is not muslim..
Wow. I find this so sad. I bet he wouldnt say that about any other group.

Can you find out where he got this information from.
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 04:06   #130
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well yeah he's old slaw =] think he reads a lot of history books on the subject and likes pat robertson and his son gordon (do I need to say more).. I know that's not the way to be and I think deep down he knows it too

but really after these wars and the rhetoric spewed by ass clowns who love the media.. I really don't blame him- there was a story of a muslim woman who converted when she came here.. she said basically what we already knew.. they teach you from a little kid to hate the jews and the united states- it's drilled in as a child.. it would probably be really hard to change

I guess she was saved by a soldier in iraq and after seeing the states herself.. that's what changed her views
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 11:13   #131
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It is kind of funny how your post illustrates the same dynamic from both sides. Muslims from fundamentalist regions are taught from an early age to distrust and hate the Jews and Westerners. Westerners in fundamentalist Christian America are taught from an early age to distrust and hate the Muslims.

Both in Palestine and Israel a boy's coming of age is marked by the first time they hold a rifle. They both know what is expected of them.
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 18:44   #132
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no noone that I know grows up like that.. there's no teaching of hate unless your crazy or something or raised by oakies maybe- but that's not the norm here

actually think most people wouldn't even care what you believed in if 911 never happened.. this last decade has changed things quite a bit- it doesn't look good for islam to convert many americans imo I mean back in the 90's we had louis farrakhan rallies.. who's around now- nobody

the foreign thing is a lot like what you all are dealing with over there.. if you don't want to assimilate into society- why are you here? think that's a valid question I mean you don't move into a country to fight the system.. you go to live your life

unless there's something more on your agenda.. why would locals put up with that
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 21:17   #133
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no noone that I know grows up like that.. there's no teaching of hate unless your crazy or something or raised by oakies maybe- but that's not the norm here...
Really? May I present to you your dad:
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...I talked to my pops yesterday on the phone and I really think he's a good representation of a lot of the core conservatives

he said he will not friend a foreign muslim under any circumstances because they will lie and steal from anyone who is not muslim.
His parents taught him. And your dad, in turn, is teaching you --to the extent that you don't even register that what is going on around you is exactly the same as the fundamentalist indoctrination that Muslim children experience in the Middle East.

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the foreign thing is a lot like what you all are dealing with over there.. if you don't want to assimilate into society- why are you here? think that's a valid question I mean you don't move into a country to fight the system.. you go to live your life

unless there's something more on your agenda.. why would locals put up with that
Perhaps immigrants find it a bit difficult to assimilate when there's locals like your dad who will reject them on principle and won't even talk to them because they look too much like Osama Bin Laden. No offence, but it works both ways.
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Last edited by Nexxo; 25th Jul 2010 at 21:23.
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 21:21   #134
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you got it all wrong.. I go as far to say that we all pretty much got along before 911
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 21:31   #135
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Yeah, but after 9/11 everyone with a dark skin and mustache or beard was a suspect. Just like over here, Jean Charles DeMenezes was basically executed for using the London Tube while looking vaguely Arab.

"You all get along" until hard times hit and you instantly default back to ethnic stereotypes. Like the guy who stole your car was probably black, the guy who planted the bomb probably Muslim, the guy who took your job probably Mexican.

Don't take it personally; it happens over here, and White people are a victim of ethnic prejudices too.
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 21:35   #136
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Parents are not to the source, media is the source.

Muslims and terrorists are not interchangeable but according to media they are. this has been an ongoing theme since 9/11.

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Old 25th Jul 2010, 22:15   #137
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Yeah, but after 9/11 everyone with a dark skin and mustache or beard was a suspect. Just like over here, Jean Charles DeMenezes was basically executed for using the London Tube while looking vaguely Arab.

"You all get along" until hard times hit and you instantly default back to ethnic stereotypes. Like the guy who stole your car was probably black, the guy who planted the bomb probably Muslim, the guy who took your job probably Mexican.

Don't take it personally; it happens over here, and White people are a victim of ethnic prejudices too.
DeMenezes was shot because he was thought to look like one of the terror suspects, so they wanted to question him, but instead he tried to run away from the police. He wasn't executed "for using the London Tube while looking vaguely Arab."
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 22:28   #138
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Demenzes didn't try to run, the police shot Menenzes as he was getting on the train. There is some dispute as to whether he was given a verbal warning before being shot 7 times in the head too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-his-life.html

It has been concluded in official reports that the shooting was a result of mistaken identity, so the statement that he was shot because he looked Arabian wouldn't be far off the mark.

EDIT: It's also been suggested that the Special Forces could have had a part to play, as the operation was conducted in the same manner as a Special Ops one would be. It was a planned execution in my belief.
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Old 25th Jul 2010, 23:00   #139
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If the man was shot in the head 7 times then it must have been an execution. If you are skilled enough to shoot a moving target in the head then you are also skilled enough to demobilize the target by putting a bullet in a leg or an arm.

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Old 26th Jul 2010, 00:20   #140
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yeah heard about that.. pretty messed up- ultimate case of profiling- but that's cops though.. think more to do with the way they operate than anything racist.. you consider he fit a description and the odds went up he was going to get it.. wrong place at the wrong time =\

and nexxo this is what I'm saying.. your so wrong about this it's funny..

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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Really? May I present to you your dad:

His parents taught him. And your dad, in turn, is teaching you
my dad formed these opinions after 911- noone goes around teaching their kids to hate like they do in the middle east.. my grandad could have cared less about religion.. he wasn't a religious man in the least.. I'm not offended just- well your reaching for a conclusion there that isn't so

with this generation who knows though.. I mean race is different than beliefs- think every country has racial tensions- just the way it is..
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