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Old 4th May 2012, 07:35   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE View Post
Will this kill TPB or piracy?
No and no.

This thread could fill up with arguments on censorship, stealing, CR infringement and the like until it swallows cyberspace, but the point here - TPB being blocked by UK ISPs - will change sweet f**k-all.


As many people have said before - make life easier for the consumer, not harder.

Since Amazon Prime's free student shipping, for instance, I bought about 10x more music than I had before, because finding quality rips of non-mainstream artists was just that much more frustrating than paying $10-15 for a CD and ripping it properly myself.

The day I can download DRM-free episodes of TV shows from, say, Amazon, linked to my email or Amazon account without any threat of losing the files (as has happened to me once with an iTunes collection worth about $700) I will stop pirating the shows we don't get here in India (HIMYM, Big Bang Theory, GoT etc).

Hell, there was a time when the ONLY games I had were pirated ones bought from shady hawkers in Delhi for tens of rupees, because games in India would routinely sell for 3000-4000 rupees (about 70-100 USD at the exchange rate of those days). Then along came Steam and I could have continuously updated games, a place to buy them at US prices, and a neat interface that allowed me access to most of my gaming buddies under one application. Poof. Haven't pirated a game (no, not even CODBLOPS) since 2007. Now physical media prices in India have come down to sane levels, so sometimes if I'm out shopping and see a game that I missed a year or two ago, it's ok to pick it up for 1000-2000 rupees (20-50 USD).

All these examples have two things in common - they add value to the purchase (Amazon offered free fast shipping, Steam offered unlimited downloads and no chance of losing your games library, along with updates and one app to control all games) and made the purchase completely painless.

That is also part of the secret to iTunes' success. The recording and movie industries could have made a killing if they spread accessibility. Instead they charge $50 for blu-ray discs and complain when the vast majority of casual movie-watchers download free 1GB rips and build a giant collection of movies on a palm-sized disk instead of a shelf under the TV.

The recording industry is telling me to download 256kbps MP3s for the price of a CD - whose stupid idea was that? Of course I, and many of the increasingly-informed global consumers, are going to stick the finger up at that daft logic when artists are beginning to promote their work via high-quality, cheap downloads directly from their sites (a number of indie bands do this, as do some big names. Trent Reznor did, I'll try and remember others).

Consumers are waking up the reality that they are being shafted and taken for granted. "Evolve or die" is the message, but the industry lobbies will continue to flail around until that message grows too loud to ignore.


I don't even know why I wrote that wall of text, surely someone in this thread has already written something similar. However, I would just like to point out that they killed Napster, Kazaa, Limewire and Megaupload and none of those actions changed a damn thing. I see no reason this will be any different.
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Old 4th May 2012, 08:12   #142
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problem is slippery slope
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Old 4th May 2012, 08:37   #143
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Slippery slope is a rubbish argument. Governments censor whatever they want anyway, so blocking TPB on infringement grounds is going to have no bearing on any other government-mandated censorship/blocking/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

TPB is different from SOPA/PIPA/CISPA because it doesn't allow for any freedom of expression to be curbed, except through TPB. If you have strong views regarding censorship or copyright law, they can still be expressed through a million other outlets. Copyright infringement is not free speech. You can hate on this act, but your grounds for doing so have to make some sense.

The only argument(s) I can think of, off the top of my head, would be (a) the internet should simply be free and open (and that's a whole 'nother can of worms); and (b) it will accomplish nothing, so why single out one website and not all the rest?
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Old 4th May 2012, 08:44   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nchhabs View Post
I suspect you typed "define: censorship" into Google as your phrasing verbatim copies one definition provided in that list, which is perfectly fine, but there are a variety of slightly differentiated meanings there. Nonetheless, I do agree to a large extent with that specific denotation, but I don't see how TPB doesn't fall under the category of 'public communication' or 'speech' that is determined 'inconvenient' to the government (primarily because lobbyist groups for Big Ent make it so). Censorship also carries the connotation of restricting potentially useful information (as it may be 'inconvenient', e.g. recreational drug information/euthanasia etc) - that's the sort of category I'd put TPB into.
I did, 'cause I'm lazy. But the point remains. You treat this as if this is a government conspiracy against freedom of information. It is not. You have no right to pirated material. You're not entitled to it. The government is simply enforcing a law to try and prevent theft.

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No need for straw man arguments ('access to books and journals... you don't know how good you've got it') based on personal anecdotes - many people have been in the exact same position of not having access to e-learning infrastructure, including myself, but I don't see how that is any justification for attacking freedom of knowledge, or free access to learning materials (which were the points originally brought up).
Because that knowledge of which you speak is not free. Someone has to pay to run the scientific journal, which has perhaps 10.000 subscribing institutions and individuals. A publisher has to pay to get the books printed, knowing that they will sell perhaps a few thousand copies to University libraries and some professionals around the world. That is pitiful number in publishing terms because they are niche products. And you pay for university teaching, don't you (a lot, these days)? Because it costs money to run teaching institutions. Because those lecturers spent a lot of time, effort and money acquiring the knowledge and expertise they are now imparting on you. And when you have a degree, you will expect to be paid accordingly for putting your acquired knowledge and expertise at tge disposal of your client or employer. Knowledge is never free. That's a fanciful ideal. It always comes at a cost to the acquirer, whether that is the author, the teacher or the student.
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Old 4th May 2012, 13:01   #145
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I did, 'cause I'm lazy. But the point remains. You treat this as if this is a government conspiracy against freedom of information. It is not. You have no right to pirated material. You're not entitled to it. The government is simply enforcing a law to try and prevent theft.


Because that knowledge of which you speak is not free. Someone has to pay to run the scientific journal, which has perhaps 10.000 subscribing institutions and individuals. A publisher has to pay to get the books printed, knowing that they will sell perhaps a few thousand copies to University libraries and some professionals around the world. That is pitiful number in publishing terms because they are niche products. And you pay for university teaching, don't you (a lot, these days)? Because it costs money to run teaching institutions. Because those lecturers spent a lot of time, effort and money acquiring the knowledge and expertise they are now imparting on you. And when you have a degree, you will expect to be paid accordingly for putting your acquired knowledge and expertise at tge disposal of your client or employer. Knowledge is never free. That's a fanciful ideal. It always comes at a cost to the acquirer, whether that is the author, the teacher or the student.
In many cases there is actually corruption or government conspiracy to restrict freedom of information - just look at the bungled case against Megaupload, in which a number of legal processes were just ignored.

Again, occasionally people do have the right to pirated material in specific scenarios (backups etc) as pointed out earlier, and not all material linked to on TPB falls under the category of copyright infringement (CC, opensource etc) although I'm sure the vast majority does. In any case, as aforementioned, blocking access to the website is not properly 'enforcing a law' - it's firstly a controversial legal area in the eyes of the public, and secondly forcing the wrong people to be accountable for the problem (ISPs instead of individuals). Further, blocking TPB at the ISP level achieves absolutely nothing, because a five year old with any intelligence can work around that block in less than 3 seconds.

I don't want to deal with the latter paragraph you wrote, because all of those points are pretty obvious (with regard to the 'production' of knowledge costing something). Nonetheless, I think it's in a nation or government's best interests to subsidise learning to the point where it is essentially free. Unfortunately the UK's economy is so poor at the moment it's going the other way, but countries like Australia, Canada and France do quite a bit in this area - and private institutions in the US are beginning to hop on board as well. EdX was launched recently by Harvard and MIT, which will be a not-for-profit initiative giving away their course content in an interactive e-classroom. These sorts of models will become more ubiquitous in the future (I hope).
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:36   #146
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Old 5th May 2012, 03:32   #147
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so why single out one website and not all the rest?
that's exactly what I mean.. slippery slope.. you start censoring and where does it end

stone jump through a saudi arabian proxy and tell me if that's what you want.. because that's where it's headed if you let things like this go.. I can pm you one if you want to try it out.. I'm sure you'd change your tune

you guys are missing the big picture.. you let one go down and it's like dominoes
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:21   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nchhabs View Post
In many cases there is actually corruption or government conspiracy to restrict freedom of information - just look at the bungled case against Megaupload, in which a number of legal processes were just ignored.
Bungled as it was, the objective was to stop infringement of copyright, not to restrict freedom of information.

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Originally Posted by nchhabs View Post
Again, occasionally people do have the right to pirated material in specific scenarios (backups etc) as pointed out earlier, and not all material linked to on TPB falls under the category of copyright infringement (CC, opensource etc) although I'm sure the vast majority does. In any case, as aforementioned, blocking access to the website is not properly 'enforcing a law' - it's firstly a controversial legal area in the eyes of the public, and secondly forcing the wrong people to be accountable for the problem (ISPs instead of individuals). Further, blocking TPB at the ISP level achieves absolutely nothing, because a five year old with any intelligence can work around that block in less than 3 seconds.
That's like saying people should be able to freely walk on and off the London tube unchecked because occasionally they have actually bought a ticket. You'll find that it nonetheless has ticket-operated turnstiles on entry and exit. I wonder why?

Whether a method of law enforcement is clumsy or ineffective has nothing to do why a law is enforced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nchhabs View Post
I don't want to deal with the latter paragraph you wrote, because all of those points are pretty obvious (with regard to the 'production' of knowledge costing something). Nonetheless, I think it's in a nation or government's best interests to subsidise learning to the point where it is essentially free. Unfortunately the UK's economy is so poor at the moment it's going the other way, but countries like Australia, Canada and France do quite a bit in this area - and private institutions in the US are beginning to hop on board as well. EdX was launched recently by Harvard and MIT, which will be a not-for-profit initiative giving away their course content in an interactive e-classroom. These sorts of models will become more ubiquitous in the future (I hope).
That is idealistic thinking but someone still has to foot the bill. And it falls outside the scope of this debate.
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Old 5th May 2012, 11:16   #149
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Originally Posted by nchhabs View Post
I don't want to deal with the latter paragraph you wrote, because all of those points are pretty obvious (with regard to the 'production' of knowledge costing something). Nonetheless, I think it's in a nation or government's best interests to subsidise learning to the point where it is essentially free. Unfortunately the UK's economy is so poor at the moment it's going the other way, but countries like Australia, Canada and France do quite a bit in this area - and private institutions in the US are beginning to hop on board as well. EdX was launched recently by Harvard and MIT, which will be a not-for-profit initiative giving away their course content in an interactive e-classroom. These sorts of models will become more ubiquitous in the future (I hope).

To be fair education is completely free in the UK for the majority of people.

All under 19 education = free and fully subsidised....it's just most under 19's don't think outside the usual school>college box, but actually you're fully entitled to go to a private training company and study whatever you like and the gov will fit the bill. Just as your entitled to teach your own kids at home and claim teaching/material/supply expenses.

Post 19 education = free if you are educated to level 3 or less, or free if you are low income, or free if you are in receipt of any kind of benefit, or free if you can evidence an employment link.

Most people are just unaware of how to access educational funding and the rules surrounding it. If you're paying for a course or training in the UK, you've simply not done your homework.

I for example got my masters degree fully funded by evidencing it's link to an are of employment need in the country. I also got my teaching qualifications (PTLS / CTTS / DTLS) funded via post 19 educational bodies in the last year (I'm 26 btw).

In fact the only education I've ever undertaken that wasn't fully funded was my degree - but a student loan at 0.3% which is underwritten by the government (so it is not considered a creditable debt - therefore it does not exist in terms of financing), is basically the same as free education.
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Old 5th May 2012, 12:11   #150
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that's exactly what I mean.. slippery slope.. you start censoring and where does it end

stone jump through a saudi arabian proxy and tell me if that's what you want.. because that's where it's headed if you let things like this go.. I can pm you one if you want to try it out.. I'm sure you'd change your tune

you guys are missing the big picture.. you let one go down and it's like dominoes
I live in a country where censorship of both press and the internet is rampant. I don't need the Saudis or Chinese to show me how it's done.

What I am saying is that a better point than "OMG censorship!" needs to be made to oppose the blocking of TPB. This is not censorship. People are still free to, say, advocate piracy. No one's being stopped from saying anything, a means to commit illegal acts is being curtailed. It's like gun control laws.

For the record, I am against TPB being blocked. This is the kind of backwards-ass thinking that I would expect the leaders of my own country to espouse, but then David Camera has his head so far up his bottom, it's a miracle he can even be heard to speak.

However, I do not equate the blocking of TPB with censorship. The two issues are clearly separate.
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:00   #151
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Hasn't affected me yet as we're on Plusnet and they don't seem to be part of the new ruling - Tbh though Piratebay is just one torrent site and I think the main reason they have gone up against it is to try and show us that no-one is invincible, even the guys at TPB who seem to make a point of pissing off the authorities (to anyone who hasn't read the 'legal' section on their site, you should, it's rather funny).

They must be the most well known torrent site on the net I just find this interesting because previously the authorities had been trying to shut down the sites themselves, if they just block all our access to it then it's of no consequence whether the site exists or not...I wonder how this will all pan out. Basically though, I'm still shocked by all of this even though it is the law, I thought the days of downloading stuff off the net would be around for a while yet, been doing it about 6 years (since I was 14) and never had any threatening letters yet...
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:46   #152
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Old 10th May 2012, 15:05   #153
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Hate to be that guy to drag the discussion back down to the property vs copyright thing but there's still a fundamental issue here that's being avoided.
Copyright isn't voluntary and it isn't all that contractual either because there's a negative externality. When a copyright is automatically assigned to a creator's material it dictates to everyone else what they can't do with their own actual property. This is why ideas aren't a form of property or something that you can own, because you can't own something that isn't scarce (literally everything is scarce apart from ideas), and intellectual 'property' is purely subjective and can't be defined in absolute terms; you can't own information. So eddie_dane this addresses your point about a law required to be universal and easily definable, and this is why copyright being a 'right' is a circular argument because it takes away someone else's property rights by default while a monopoly to an idea is assigned to the proprietor. It's basically another form of protectionism.
So on this basis I still can't fathom as to why I should be legally liable if I decide to make Star Wars figurines out of my own ceramic material and put them up for sale on ebay. (This is hypothetical, I'm not that sad...)

Having said all that people should still have the right to pursuit profit for their own work and protect their own work in a voluntary and contractual way, and they can. I understand that's eddie_dane's and Nexxo's main concern here; how would people profit from their own work? Eddie_dane I can understand your bias towards this law as a photographer, but there are other means of achieving the same utilitarian goals which I can go through numerous examples on a case by case basis, and people would continue to work out new ways over time.

- For example look at open source software businesses which are capable of existing without any IP laws if there were none. Canonical the company behind Ubuntu Linux are thriving these days.
- A wedding photographer doesn't have to hand over the photos until they've been paid. A landscape photographer can present low-res low quality versions of premium versions of their photos in print for sale.
- What about all the crowdsourcing that's going on lately. An animator on Youtube who put out his first animation for free, and because of its popularity was able to crowdsource a sequel in exchange for putting all the donors' names in the credits
- Most musicians and singers make most of their money from peformances not record sales. The music publisher take the biggest share of money, granted they do bear the biggest burden of the cost but without IP laws this business model would probably be rendered obsolete. A lot of bands now put their music up on Youtube for free and ask for a donation at the end and a link to the album on CD.
- Look at the film crews behind indie films such as the Half Life spin-off movie. You can watch the movie for free on Youtube but for bigger fans they offer a collection for sale with art books, a making of documentary, and the film itself on blu-ray. And you can donate too on their website. Thankfully Valve didn't decide to take them to court but who knows they probably had to ask for permission first.
Big publishers who stand to benefit the most from this protectionism would probably have to cut the budget of their blockbuster productions but over time improved technology would address that problem anyway and we would reach the same level special effects.

I could go on and there are some potential problems that I don't have the answer for off the top of my head but the market would work out these things over time anyway if there were no IP laws. Personally I very rarely pirate because I like to support the artists/business and I can usually tell when I'm spending my money on something if it's going to be worth the price, and the fact that it's not their fault they've been forced (I use that word loosely) into this kind of a business model in a distorted market.
Check out Stephan Kinsella's work who's written and hosted lot of lectures on this subject. I think you might find it enlightening.

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Old 10th May 2012, 18:06   #154
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Good stuff
I think I agree - IP law just seems anti-social.
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Old 10th May 2012, 20:32   #155
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Hate to be that guy to drag the discussion back down to the property vs copyright thing but there's still a fundamental issue here that's being avoided.
Copyright isn't voluntary and it isn't all that contractual either because there's a negative externality. When a copyright is automatically assigned to a creator's material it dictates to everyone else what they can't do with their own actual property. This is why ideas aren't a form of property or something that you can own, because you can't own something that isn't scarce (literally everything is scarce apart from ideas), and intellectual 'property' is purely subjective and can't be defined in absolute terms; you can't own information. So eddie_dane this addresses your point about a law required to be universal and easily definable, and this is why copyright being a 'right' is a circular argument because it takes away someone else's property rights by default while a monopoly to an idea is assigned to the proprietor. It's basically another form of protectionism.
So on this basis I still can't fathom as to why I should be legally liable if I decide to make Star Wars figurines out of my own ceramic material and put them up for sale on ebay. (This is hypothetical, I'm not that sad...)
I have to disagree with you that ideas are not scarce. Scarcity means that there is less of something that everyone desires. People do desire ideas. In a way, your whole argument hinges on the desire for an idea of changing the way IP is handled, ergo, it is scarce. I would argue that knowledge itself just might be the most scarce resource mankind has ever known.

Tell all the people who died of cancer before someone came up with the idea to use powerful magnets for medical imaging that could have diagnosed them sooner or a chemist that came up with a successful combination of compounds to treat cancer that ideas are not scarce.

I do get your point. Copyrights are contracts (or at least implied supposition to them), they are not coercive, artists sign contracts voluntarily with record companies because they believe they gain more from it than not signing, no matter how bad the distributor's terms are. They accepted them.

Anyone who has a claim to an idea can relinquish that right at anytime. I can go on flickr tomorrow and release every image I have ever shot to an open group. I may do it out of the goodness of my heart, or I may do it thinking that it will get me some public attention and maybe someone will pay me to shoot something down the road. It's my gamble to make and each path has its own rewards, or compensation, that isn't always money but it is always something the creator values. I am plagued by perverts on flickr who want my images of underage gymnasts in competitions, they could take those images and use them on a website and there wouldn't be a damn thing I could do. I'm not comfortable with that. If that happened, how much longer would such competitions allow photographers as a result?

The question is, if people knew up front that their ideas and creations would never be compensated, how generous would people be in sharing them? I contend that if you removed all IP rights, people who come up with the next great idea would keep it to themselves until they were sure they could capitalize on it they way they saw fit. There would literally be no incentive to do so.

The total fruition of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings story COULD have been come up by someone else, but it wasn't. The Fantasy genre is full of millions of different stories, but few have every been as in demand as his work, that's because of its scarcity in the grand scheme of ideas. If his book just went into the ether with no compensation, do you think he would then write anything else? He had to feed his family some way. If now he has to paint houses instead, would he even have the time/energy to work on any other literature? I'm not buying your argument but I'm also not claiming it's perfect, merely the least imperfect method to date. As you pointed out with several examples, the landscape is shifting on how people are compensated but the principles remain the same.

I fail to see the circular nature of my logic but I'm also prone to think I'm right so just point it out and I'll concede. It's entirely possible I'm missing your point as well.

One thing that gets erroneously poured into the mix are various conveyances like math or language. No one owns math or the english language, they are conveyances not products. Example is that I don't own calculus but my unique use of calculus to design a product is mine. It's the tangible manipulation of math that is the functional creation that now becomes something that can be demanded.
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Personally I very rarely pirate because I like to support the artists/business
This seems to contradict your argument completely.

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I think I agree - IP law just seems anti-social.
Read my argument above, IP law is inherently social. People don't protect their ideas and creations to just sit on them. They use them IN ORDER to share them with as many people as they can, just on their terms. There is no use for IP law for a man alone on an island. Anti-altruistic? perhaps, anti-social, absolutely not.
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Old 11th May 2012, 00:35   #156
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I have to disagree with you that ideas are not scarce. Scarcity means that there is less of something that everyone desires. People do desire ideas. In a way, your whole argument hinges on the desire for an idea of changing the way IP is handled, ergo, it is scarce. I would argue that knowledge itself just might be the most scarce resource mankind has ever known.
You can easily argue either way whether information is scarce or not but it's impossible to come to any conclusive evidence, because the fact still stands that it's entirely subjective and therefore cannot be 'owned'. But hey this is all just philosophical rambling so I'll just cut straight to the utilitarian points.

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Tell all the people who died of cancer before someone came up with the idea to use powerful magnets for medical imaging that could have diagnosed them sooner or a chemist that came up with a successful combination of compounds to treat cancer that ideas are not scarce.
I'm not arguing against incentives. On the contrary, I would argue there would be more competition without the Patent act. In fact a market economy without patents is far easier to envisage compared to the Copyright Act. A resource, if you like, is only worth something when it's put to some use, given a value. When a legal monopoly is applied to an invention it has historically been shown to slow down progress and hamper competition. For example when James Watt applied for a patent to the steam engine, the technology improved at a very slow rate with only around 750 horsepower added every year. When the patent finally expired horsepower improved by about 4000 per year for 30 consecutive years. Not only that efficiency was also slow to improve during the same period of the patent's lease but after the patent expired it increased by a factor of 5 *
So where would the incentive come from without legal ownership you ask?
Let's say I handed over a pill to someone that I had just invented that cures all known diseases and there wasn't a patent on it. The recipient wouldn't necessarily be given a gold mine, because you can't simply reverse engineer it by yourself within a few hours and hey presto you're a billionaire. It requires knowledge and time; that person would have to hire a team of experts which costs a lot of money and it would take a lot of take time. During that time the person who made the discovery in the first place would enjoy a monopoly in the market whilst they're already working on new stuff and the competitors would be feeding off of his idea and making improvements to it. The more complex the product the more it would cost competitors who copy and the longer a period the original inventor gets to enjoy being the first to the market with that product. So the incentive works in more of a proportional way than patents. The only businesses that would lose are companies such as pharmaceuticals who like to sit on a patent without putting it to any production. And just look at the current situation, manufacturers fighting each other in the court room over the most absurd things rather than competing in the marketplace as they should be, and costing billions in wasted money.

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I do get your point. Copyrights are contracts (or at least implied supposition to them), they are not coercive, artists sign contracts voluntarily with record companies because they believe they gain more from it than not signing, no matter how bad the distributor's terms are. They accepted them.

Anyone who has a claim to an idea can relinquish that right at anytime. I can go on flickr tomorrow and release every image I have ever shot to an open group. I may do it out of the goodness of my heart, or I may do it thinking that it will get me some public attention and maybe someone will pay me to shoot something down the road. It's my gamble to make and each path has its own rewards, or compensation, that isn't always money but it is always something the creator values.
I'm not arguing contracts are involuntary. Copyrights specifically, however, is not a contract in the sense that there's an invisible third-party cost by default. Sure it's definitely voluntary between the two participants involved in the transaction, but that third-party has their property rights undermined as a result. That's where the coercion is, is what I'm saying.

And if an artist wants to sign a contract with a record company for whatever reason because they think they benefit from it, of course that's their prerogative but I only mentioned that the same business model might not be profitable in a market free of IP laws and that self-publishing might be more desirable. But who knows, these things are unpredictable...

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Originally Posted by eddie_dane View Post
The question is, if people knew up front that their ideas and creations would never be compensated, how generous would people be in sharing them? I contend that if you removed all IP rights, people who come up with the next great idea would keep it to themselves until they were sure they could capitalize on it they way they saw fit. There would literally be no incentive to do so.
^^ As Above. Although I concede no copyrights for things like novels and songs is a harder case to argue but for inventions I see more incentive for the market as a whole including those who currently benefit from this legal monopoly because they would have to keep investing and moving on to the next thing very quickly.

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One thing that gets erroneously poured into the mix are various conveyances like math or language. No one owns math or the english language, they are conveyances not products. Example is that I don't own calculus but my unique use of calculus to design a product is mine. It's the tangible manipulation of math that is the functional creation that now becomes something that can be demanded.
Thankyou you made my own point far more eloquently here than I did. For example you can't own a novel which just so happens to be a series of letters arranged in a specific order (except for the raw materials that make up those goods), but you have the right to pursuit profit and recognition for your work. So the real question is as you point out, is this feasible in a market free of IP laws and would the free-market find solutions around these obstacles so as to provide incentive and assurance for a return on that investment... I think I've argued the best case I can and I have some questions myself about how things would work in certain different situations but not so much where patents apply. I'm still looking into this stuff myself right now, but I encourage you to check out some of Stephan Kinsella's lectures on youtube.

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Personally I very rarely pirate because I like to support the artists/business
This seems to contradict your argument completely.
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"...and the fact that it's not their fault they've been forced (I use that word loosely) into this kind of a business model in a distorted market."
It doesn't when you consider what follows afterwards. I had a feeling that one might be taken out of context. Unless, you got the impression I'm against people being compensated for their work?

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Old 11th May 2012, 02:19   #157
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Also I'd like to point out a lot of people wrote during times when there wasn't Copyright. E.g. Shakespeare has garnered a huge reputation for his work and his work is still exclusively associated with his name.

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Old 11th May 2012, 02:47   #158
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Also I'd like to point a lot of people wrote during times when there wasn't Copyright. E.g. Shakespeare has garnered a huge reputation for his work and his work is still exclusively associated with his name.
This is a fascinating point actually; many early canonical authors (specifically in the Middle Ages) had a very different outlook on 'plagiarism' than we do nowadays. Authors such as Chaucer and Gower would routinely compile multiple sources (occasionally verbatim, but often with slight changes) to synthesise and produce new works. Gower's "Confessio Amantis" is a specific example, as is Chaucer's Troilus and Creseid, which heavily utilise Ovid and Boccacio (fictively represented as "Lollius" to aid in the sense of 'auctoritas') respectively.

Medieval understandings of the author, or 'auctor' and their authority, or 'auctoritas', are almost the inverse of modern assumptions. If anyone's interested in checking this out further, A. J. Minnis' "Medieval Theory of Authorship' is an informative read.
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Old 11th May 2012, 05:22   #159
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I'm not arguing contracts are involuntary. Copyrights specifically, however, is not a contract in the sense that there's an invisible third-party cost by default. Sure it's definitely voluntary between the two participants involved in the transaction, but that third-party has their property rights undermined as a result. That's where the coercion is, is what I'm saying.
My apologies because my time is short and I'm going away for the weekend but I need you to explicitly explain this "third party" that pays a cost, seemingly automatically, as a result of two parties agreeing to a contract. I'll try my best to view the youtubes and references (but you understand, I have my own list of stuff I'm trying to get through) you recommend but, for now, I need you to make the argument without me having to research your side.
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Old 11th May 2012, 10:32   #160
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Also I'd like to point out a lot of people wrote during times when there wasn't Copyright. E.g. Shakespeare has garnered a huge reputation for his work and his work is still exclusively associated with his name.
I don't enough about Shakespeare to comment on him specifically but artists tended to work much more under commission and didn't own the end product them selves.

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This is a fascinating point actually; many early canonical authors (specifically in the Middle Ages) had a very different outlook on 'plagiarism' than we do nowadays. Authors such as Chaucer and Gower would routinely compile multiple sources (occasionally verbatim, but often with slight changes) to synthesise and produce new works. Gower's "Confessio Amantis" is a specific example, as is Chaucer's Troilus and Creseid, which heavily utilise Ovid and Boccacio (fictively represented as "Lollius" to aid in the sense of 'auctoritas') respectively.

Medieval understandings of the author, or 'auctor' and their authority, or 'auctoritas', are almost the inverse of modern assumptions. If anyone's interested in checking this out further, A. J. Minnis' "Medieval Theory of Authorship' is an informative read.
Like Shakespeare they operated at a time when printing, distribution and to some extent the audience who could read were limited. With Chaucer and Gower where they introducing the older works to a new audience in updated language or a different style, i.e. Hamlet and the Lion King?
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