Motors The Official bit-tech F1 2012 Thread - Post season

[BentAnat]

Jealousy ++

[Pieface]

As long as BBC never bring back Jonathon Ledgard back.

[Throbbi]

Originally Posted by Pieface

As long as BBC never bring back Jonathon Ledgard back.

No arguments from me there, he's the single most annoying commentator I've ever seen for any sport let alone F1. Even the boogidy-boogidy guy is better than him, at least he adds an element of wtflol to things,.

[Mankz]

According to the Beeb, the FIA are pushing for a change to the rules becuase of Red Bull's engine maps..

Formula 1 bosses are working to introduce a rule change to outlaw controversial engine settings on the Red Bull.

The issue arose at Sunday's German Grand Prix and was discussed at a meeting of senior officials on Monday.
Red Bull were cleared by race stewards after accusations by governing body the FIA of running illegal engine settings.

The FIA is trying to produce a rule clarification in time for this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix.
But it wants to ensure any rule change does not lead to other problems and no decision has yet been made on whether that will be possible.
It is unlikely there will be a decision before the end of Wednesday.
The row revolves around an immensely complicated issue to do with the computer settings - so-called maps - that control the amount of torque delivered by the engine in various conditions.

The FIA's concern is that Red Bull and engine manufacturer Renault are using reduced torque settings for a given engine speed. These act as a form of traction control, limiting wheelspin out of corners.
Governing body the FIA found that Red Bull's engine was delivering less torque at full throttle in the mid-range of the engine's rev band in Germany than it had at the preceding British Grand Prix.
They said this was a breach of article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations, which states that the "maximum accelerator travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed".
The verdict on Sunday said: "While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written the map presented does not breach article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations."
The idea of the rule is to prevent the engine delivering less power to the wheels than it can do, as doing so is a form of traction control, which is banned.
However, teams are allowed to change their engine maps from race to race - and Red Bull were cleared because there was no definition of how big these changes could be before they were not allowed.
The FIA is aiming to close that loophole.
If it succeeds, it will be a simple matter for Red Bull to switch back to an earlier map than the one they used in Germany.

And Gary Anderson puts its quite well -

"To fix the loophole, the FIA could write a rule that said: "The accelerator pedal travel will be defined as 0% (minimum) to 100% (maximum) and at any position between these two end stops the percentage torque output of the engine base torque map for the measured engine speed must match the accelerator pedal percentage +/- 1%...

"This would mean the relationship between throttle pedal position and the torque delivery must be linear.

"And the rule could finish by saying: "… and the percentage of throttle body opening must match the accelerator pedal percentage +/- 10%.

"That would mean any change in torque characteristics could not be done by just retarding the ignition - a common method of employing engine braking - while leaving the throttle open to pump air through the engine and exhausts, which is a way of using the exhausts for aerodynamic effect.

"Allowing a margin of +/- 10% provides some leeway for the characteristics of different engines, as all have different operating requirements."

[Krikkit]

There's endless talk of cutting costs, but changing a rule so fundamental as this will cost every engine builder several engines on the dyno to refine the maps to adjust. I don't know the figures for each engine's cost, but it wouldn't surprise if it cost each team a couple of million euros by the end of it, and for what net gain? Every team is exploiting what blown effects they can from the engines, as far as I know they've been using the throttle this way for ages, certainly before the EBD's of last seasons, only now do we find ourselves needing change...

[BentAnat]

The problem is that "cost cutting" and "greener" are not necessarily pages from the same book.

There's a massive movement in F1 to go "green". All electric Pitlanes, ERS, Smaller Engines, etc.

Engine maps like RBR were running in Germany (as far as I understand) allow more gasses to pass through the engine "unused", to blow the Diffuser with higher energy.
Not only is that against the "spirit of the rules" in terms of diffuser, but it's also not in line with "going green"...

I do agree that this is going to cost the engine manufacturers money initially, but it'll be of cost benefit to the smaller teams, who can't run new engine maps (and surely dyno tests are involved here as well) at every other race.

[alastor]

So FP1 and FP2 at the Hungaroring have passed without much notice being paid; lost in a pre-Olympics fury. It's all on sky anyway...

FP3 starts at 10am today and qualifying at 1pm. Looking pretty good for McLaren so far.

[stonedsurd]

30 minutes into FP3 and McLaren's still looking impressive. Hamilton's second fastest behind Vettel but set his time on the medium compound while Vettel was on softs.

It remains to be seen whether their degradation issues are solved during the race, however. One-lap pace in practice and quali is meaningless if you get jumped on track because of tyre wear.

EDIT: And a minute after I posted that, Webber went faster than both VET and HAM. He's also on softs. Alonso has started his run late, but I can't help but think that's a tactical decision to minimize degradation on track after letting the others rubber it in nicely. The later he switches to soft, the less of a beating they'll take. The only downside I can see is a lack of data collection/setup time due to limited running.

Two hours for quali. Red Bull looks sharp as does Hamilton. Can't say if Button's found any real pace because he appeared to be on a long run in FP3. I don't know if Alonso's hiding pace or if the F2012 really isn't going to get any higher than P5. Senna was the real surprise up in P5. Looks like his sim time and pressure to keep his drive is beginning to show. Let's see if he can pull something in quali and the race.

[Abomin81on]

Really looking forward to the race tomorrow. I want to see if the two Lotus machines can deliver on the promise they've shown.

The championship lead Alonso has isn't going to reduce over this race but both Kimi and Lewis has the chance to put themselves into a stronger position for the rest of the season. It's always nice to have a close championship.

[bagman]

Hamilton just embarrassed the rest of the field. Surprised at how slow Button is compared, judging by Hamilton's pace Button should be P2 at least. None the less hopefully Button can improve from his position, and Hamilton should win with ease if his qualifying pace is anything to go by. With Alsonso being fairly slow hopefully it will let people catch up in the championship standings.

[Showerhead]

Is there some kind of limit to penalties in a season. Maldonado must be approaching it rapidly if it exists.

[Redsnake77]

Is Vettel going to be investigated for ignoring yellow flags?

[Xye]

Seriously? Spoilers!

[stonedsurd]

Originally Posted by Xye

Seriously? Spoilers!

Seriously? What did you expect on an F1 thread right after a race?

On-topic - if he had a personal best or purple sector where the flags were, he should definitely get a penalty. But given that they screwed him in Germany, they might be a little wary about slapping him again.

[CrapBag]

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

Seriously? What did you expect on an F1 thread right after a race?

On-topic - if he had a personal best or purple sector where the flags were, he should definitely get a penalty. But given that they screwed him in Germany, they might be a little wary about slapping him again.

Not that much was given away, it's kind of awkward seeing as the bbc highlights show doesn't start until around 5ish, I can't afford to pay the extra to get it on Sky so I'd suggest people don't look at this thread until they have watched said highlights.

[stonedsurd]

No penalty for Vettel yet. I did some reading - only single-waved yellows on that turn, so as long as telemetry shows him lifting for that turn alone, he won't get a penalty. Even if he goes purple in that sector, a lift through turn 4 saves him from a penalty.

[Redsnake77]

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

No penalty for Vettel yet. I did some reading - only single-waved yellows on that turn, so as long as telemetry shows him lifting for that turn alone, he won't get a penalty. Even if he goes purple in that sector, a lift through turn 4 saves him from a penalty.

I agree, but yellows went out on lap 65 or 66 and he set fastest lap on 68 purple in all three sectors. My issue is that it wasn't even investigated. But as stonedsurd said, he's had his penalty for the season (paraphrased of course).

[rollo]

How can you spoiler somebody when race finished 3 hrs ago if you don't want to know results just stay outta the thread.

Race as a whole pretty boring

Hamilton seemed to have a lot spare and looked like he was pacing himself button for me is out of title race nearly 100 points behind now.

[Throbbi]

Always hated Hungary, such a borefest of a track. Hamilton was stonking and Kimi's strategy very nearly worked (good to see a totally different strategy to everyone else nearly paying off).

Now a 5 smegging week break until Spa

[BentAnat]

I missed the race (due to my mate wanting to drive to Cape town to watch the rugby there...), but kept an eye on the live timing and Autosport commentary.

Good race from Lewis, and he deserved the win.
The one (i suppose) questionable thing is the penalty on Maldonado. Though I didn't watch it, it sounds like his run-in last time, and the penalty seems more of a "stop your s***" than actually penalising the incident itself.