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Old 7th Nov 2012, 08:55   #1341
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The big problem with the "analysis" is that it's ignoring the fact that bad things also happen to other drivers. Most recently, Vettel also had a "fuel infringement" and was demoted to the back of the grid. The result of this was that he came back to 3rd whereas Hamilton could only make 8th when the same thing happened to him. Then there's Valencia, when Vettel had a mechanical failure after being 4th on the track, and Monza where Vettel had pole position but failed to finish. Don't forget Malaysia, when Vettel was tagged by an HRT he was lapping, got a puncture and was retired on the last lap due to a team decision.

If you're counting Hamilton's "fuel infringement" as loss of a win, then Vettel's actually down by around 60 points from where he should be. Again, that puts Hamilton out of contention for the WDC.

Arguable? I think that's the right word for the "analysis".
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 10:07   #1342
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Originally Posted by sp4nky View Post
The big problem with the "analysis" is that it's ignoring the fact that bad things also happen to other drivers. Most recently, Vettel also had a "fuel infringement" and was demoted to the back of the grid. The result of this was that he came back to 3rd whereas Hamilton could only make 8th when the same thing happened to him. Then there's Valencia, when Vettel had a mechanical failure after being 4th on the track, and Monza where Vettel had pole position but failed to finish. Don't forget Malaysia, when Vettel was tagged by an HRT he was lapping, got a puncture and was retired on the last lap due to a team decision.

If you're counting Hamilton's "fuel infringement" as loss of a win, then Vettel's actually down by around 60 points from where he should be. Again, that puts Hamilton out of contention for the WDC.

Arguable? I think that's the right word for the "analysis".
There's a difference int eh RBR fuel infringement vs the McLaren one.

RBR had an issue that WAS ACCEPTED as force majeur, and then had ANOTHER issue whereby there was enough fuel in the car, but the fuel cells prevented it from being extracted. THAT is why they got the penalty, becuase the rules say that the fuel has to be retreived without the removal of body panels.

McLaren ahd an issue where the car was fuelled low (due to a pump in the wrong setting - outside of the car).
Lewis then ran a lap (which would have placed him 6th or thereabouts in retrospective). He then launched straight into another fast lap. By that time, someone at McLaren SHOULD HAVE picked up that the car was too light, and SHOULD HAVE told him to slow down and bring the car in. INSTEAD, he blitzes the lap and IMMEDIATELY AFTER gets told to slow down and stop...

in short: McLaren was because they were sleeping, RBR was because of a problem.
Looking at the pace that Lewis had at the quali in question (and that pace is NOT acounted for simply by fuel effect), and looking at the longer tyre life that front runners demonstrate this seasons, it's reasonable to expect that Lewis would have taken that race pole-to-flag.

Yes, reliability issues arguably happen to other drivers as well. Webber and Vettel had Alternator issues. I'll concede that wihtout issues.

Also note how the analysis DOESN'T account for several of the collisions Lewis was involved in. The Maldonado one is accounted for, since without the pitstop ballsup that McLaren seemed to make a lot in the early season, he would have been clear of Maldonado.

Of course, 110 points is a "best case" scenario. But looking at the races that JA picked out, and looking at his reasoning, it would be safe to assume that at the VERY least he would still be very much in contention for the WDC and the WCC for McLaren without the pitstop disaster, the fuelling disaster and the team not getting **** right.

McLaren cost themselves this season. That's the point.
When Whitmarsh said recently "We're making it too easy for RBR", he was refering to the collective "We" as in - the other F1 teams... What I saw there was "We - McLaren"
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 18:24   #1343
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@BentAnat : http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104089

RBR had no issue, they were only thinking they had an issue and that's why they ordered Vettel to stop. But in the end it seems they simply had the same issue as Hamilton - not enough fuel pumped in the car. The only difference is that in case of McL it was a mistake of the guy who handled the pump, while in case of Vettel it seems like the issue is with the pumping system itself.
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 06:20   #1344
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Read that just now. Interesting.
The fact remains that Seb's failing to finish the lap was accepted as Force Majeure by the stewards, but was penalised for not having enough fuel that was extractable.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104001

As you point out, though - the McLaren bit was a person's fault, whereas this was a machine fault combined with a misinterpretation of the data by Renault.
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 08:43   #1345
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Originally Posted by sp4nky View Post
The big problem with the "analysis" is that it's ignoring the fact that bad things also happen to other drivers. Most recently, Vettel also had a "fuel infringement" and was demoted to the back of the grid. The result of this was that he came back to 3rd whereas Hamilton could only make 8th when the same thing happened to him. Then there's Valencia, when Vettel had a mechanical failure after being 4th on the track, and Monza where Vettel had pole position but failed to finish. Don't forget Malaysia, when Vettel was tagged by an HRT he was lapping, got a puncture and was retired on the last lap due to a team decision.

If you're counting Hamilton's "fuel infringement" as loss of a win, then Vettel's actually down by around 60 points from where he should be. Again, that puts Hamilton out of contention for the WDC.

Arguable? I think that's the right word for the "analysis".
I wouldn't call them the same, Vettel was handed the 3rd place on a plate thanks to two safety cars, despite his good pace I sincerely doubt he could have made any better than 8th himself. Also shouldn't that Malaysia line read 'when Vettel tagged an HRT and utterly destroyed his own floor by stamping on the throttle in his usual hissy-fit when it doesn't go his way'.
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 15:23   #1346
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Also shouldn't that Malaysia line read 'when Vettel tagged an HRT and utterly destroyed his own floor by stamping on the throttle in his usual hissy-fit when it doesn't go his way'.
You know, I wondered if anyone would pick that up. Yes, it was Princess Stampifoot's fault.
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Old 12th Nov 2012, 18:31   #1347
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 06:01   #1348
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I really REALLY want one of those shirts for my upcoming birthday. :P

In other news, HRT is up for sale....
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 08:22   #1349
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I need one of those shirts!!
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 08:43   #1350
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 08:59   #1351
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Sniffpetrol did it better.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 09:10   #1352
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Sniffpetrol did it better.
I was going to say omgiloveyoucanhasyourkidsplx and then i realised that not only would that likely make someone's signature, but it'd also I found this:
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NOTE: Unfortunately, we do not deliver to the countries below
[countries] Namibia, [more conoutries]
Then I had a sad... and then I realised that I have a brother in Germany, who's visiting in February... they do ship to Germany...
thus: Thank you.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 09:32   #1353
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Well if your brother has any problems I'll happily proxy one for you.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 09:32   #1354
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I was going to say omgiloveyoucanhasyourkidsplx and then i realised that not only would that likely make someone's signature, but it'd also I found this:


Then I had a sad... and then I realised that I have a brother in Germany, who's visiting in February... they do ship to Germany...
thus: Thank you.
Sig'd. For now.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 10:49   #1355
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Well if your brother has any problems I'll happily proxy one for you.
Thanks, Krikkit.
Just need to talk to the ministry of all things related to my credit card. My brother shouldn't have any problems with this... If he does, I'll get back to you.

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Sig'd. For now.
Noted.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 13:15   #1356
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 13:21   #1357
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For Sale - Used F1 Team. Not many miles on the clock, hardly run in. Grab a bargin, low starting price, no reserve.

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I really REALLY want one of those shirts for my upcoming birthday. :P

In other news, HRT is up for sale....
As implied before.

I am not convince that we'll see HRT next year.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 14:03   #1358
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Anything that gets Narain Karthikeyan off the grid is a good move imo.

That guy has an almost 100% rate of failure/crashing/getting into way. I have more faith in Pedro de la Rosa.
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Old 14th Nov 2012, 04:58   #1359
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104198
Reading that, my gut tells me that maybe we should look at next year's Mercedes with some optimism.
They seem to have realised early that their platform wasn't right, and focussed on longer-term gains. That's how I am interpreting it anyway.
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Old 14th Nov 2012, 23:53   #1360
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Just giving a heads up for some pics up on the official F1 site. Look at the uphill and downhill shots of start/finish straight-turn 1 I knew it was a fairly sizable hill but holy crap that looks mental, the apex is higher than the roof of the damn grandstand and pit buildings!

http://www.formula1.com/gallery/race...wednesday.html

Up that hill, totally blind apex, super-late braking thanks to the hill. I expect calamity or awesomeness.
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