1 Case, $1,000 dollars, too many decisions

Hi all,

I've decided to get a little more serious about folding, having just gotten back into it and would like a little advice. I'm in America doing research until December so the scale of my folding ambitions must remain small, hence I'm going for a single dedicated machine:

1 Case, $1,000

When I get back to blighty, assuming a PhD doesn't send me off somewhere else I'll be building a farm but until then, how does the following look to you all:

MSI K9A2 Platinum @ $134.99
AMD Athlon X2 4050e & Artic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro Combo @ $55
Hitachi Travelstar 80Gb 2.5" HDD @ $40
4 x 9800GT @ $399.96
SILVERSTONE ELEMENT ST75EF 750W Power Supply @ $90 (after rebate, ridiculous price)

These are all pretty solid choices as far as I can tell, but obviously I would welcome any feedback. Also, is 750W enough? Each card will draw around 105 Watts if Nvidia are telling the truth and the PSU is 80+ bronze certified should will cope well I hope. Where I really need help is with the remaining components:

RAM/OS:There's a lot of issues here, so rather than go through my entire train of thought I'll just ask: For this setup, would 1 Gig of 800MHz RAM and XP Pro 32-bit do the job, baring in mind each card has 512Mb onboard? I can get a legit copy of XpPro-32 for $25, anything else (bar linux, obv.) and I'm looking at around $150, so here's where I can hopefully save some denero for other components. Or is linux + WINE a realistic option here?

Case/cooling: This is going to be limited by the funds I'm left with I'm afraid, but any pointers as to the level of cooling I can expect to need to employ would be all good. Water cooling takes me way out of budget, so really we're talking large, preferably quiet fans and a case that will hold them. Since I don't have a shop or tools over here, I'm stuck with stock products or very basic mods (yank out x, insert y) only.

As for a CD drive to install the OS, that will be borrowed from my daily use PC and then put back, or the problem is avoided if linux is an option as I can install from USB. I don't expect any of you to be hunting down hardware for me, let alone in american currency, but to summarize, I'm looking for appropriate case, cooling, OS and RAM and any general tips that you guys might have, all of which will be very much appreciated. Pootling along at 2100ppd just ain't doing it for me atm.

 

Rather than another edit, I thought I would double post since this will be a preliminary complete build list. Apologies if that's frowned upon here. The idea is that this build leaves room for expansion so that when some funds come in I can push it a bit further than I originally planned, though it will be earning less PPD until that happens. Also, it has the best possible graphics cooling solution for a build of this kind. Anyway, a complete build (from the Egg):

Antec Skeleton Case $145
MSI K9A2 $150
2xPNY GTX260-216 $360
Silverstone Element 750W PSU $120
AMD 4050e + Cooler $65
WD SE 80Gb HDD $34
Geil 1Gb DDR2 800 $16

Sub-Total $890
Rebates -$85
Shipping $18
Total $823

So, this build would give me the room to incorporate a further 2 GTX260-216 at a future date and leaves me the cash which I will need in order to buy a 64-bit version of Windows (which the higher memory totals require). That is assuming that it's worth the expense over running Linux + WINE. I use Linux every day, so that side's not an issue, I just don't know how big a hit I can expect to take from running clients with the wrapper. Again, any advice would be very much welcome!

 

The Antec Skaleton doesn't have much clearance, I'm not sure the AF64 will fit.
I'd got for either an Antec 300, 900 or 1200

 

Ah, you're right saspro, I forgot to say that the bundle with the 4050e comes with a GeminII which reportedly does fit. Also, I've just realised that switching to 260s means that I would eventually need much more than 750W

 

Yes

1 G RAM fine, XP easier than Vista (XP Home certainly from experience, probably XP Pro) I've not had much experience of Linux but on this forum and others, it's said to be more difficult to get the GPU folding to work smoothly. I'd check if 64 bit Windows is really required, on the F@H forums look for the names Atlas Folding, Tigerbiten, and jaak ennuste. The relationship between GPU memory, m'board memory, and Windows memory mapping isn't simple.

There are lots of negative reviews of the Antec Skeleton. Space is tight. Also it doesn't offer much protection to the hardware - if you are moving about, that may be something to consider. I'd suggest Antec Nine Hundred Two, good air flow, quiet fans, AND it's one of the few cases to provide 8 expansion slots on the rear, so it will be able to accomodate all four GTX260 cards when you get them. It is steel, so heavier than aluminium cases.

You will get more PPD from 4*9800 than 2*260 (although my expereince suggests the 4 will be noisier - does that matter to you? By December we will hopefully know more about the GTX300 series of cards, so you may have a change of plan at that point ...

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the more this "myth" is perpetuated, the harder it becomes to stamp it out.
What does that mean, "more difficult to work smoothly"? I see more people having problems with XP and Vista than I ever had GPU folding on Linux, faulty hardware excepted. Extend the desktop, fit dummy plugs to the cards to fool Vista into thinking a monitor is connected. <sarcasm>That's real smooth!</sarcasm>

 

OK, I bow before a more experienced folder. What I said is a myth. Ignore it.

 

Thanks for your input guys, I shall do some further investigating about Windows memory allocation before I commit. At this stage I am shying away from linux, even though I love the tasty open sauce it provides, purely because the official line from Pande is that it isn't kosher as I understand.

I think being realistic I will have to stick with my original plan of 4x9800GTs since upgrading from 2xGTX260 to 4xGTX260 would mean a step up in PSU, will likely require a 64-bit OS and may well have issues with a Connecticut Summer in my apartment.

I am aware of the negative press that the skeleton has gotten and I feel that I should fight its corner a little. My reasons for wanting to try it out are:

• It offers the best GPU air-cooling off the shelf of any case
• My last 2 (non-folding) builds have been housed in an antec 900 and 300. I love those cases but I would like a change in aesthetic
• The space issue largely affects CPU but I can make do with any HSF since its a 45W mule for GPU clients anyway.

I'm certainly not disregarding your advice Christopher and sas but I think I'm gonna go with it and if it comes round to bite me.... then I'll be back to confirm your doubts. As far as I can see, the worst case scenario here is that I can't fit all 4 cards and have to make a second rig with the left overs. If that's the case then I can donate that to the lab I'm working at, with the stipulation that it continues to fold for CPC for as long as possible after I'm gone.

Thanks again for the advice

Edit: Love how I'm already contemplating a second folding rig btw. I have just seen a folding rig using a skeleton and 4x 9800gx2 cards so fitting the cards won't be an issue

 

I should probably shut-up before I alienate every one here, but I'm not sure where you guys get this stuff from. The official line from Pande? Have they ever said anything other than they will not "officially" support it. ie. running the Windows GPU2 exe via wine is not a supported (by them) configuration. Not that they don't want people using this configuration, not that it isn't "kosher" or some other derogatory term, not that it corrupts the science, not that the work returned by the client (run on Linux via wine) is any less valuable.........

 

Hi Jack,

you're not alienating anyone, its good to have a healthy debate about such things. That said, I wasn't trying to be derogatory with my choice of words there, I thought that 'kosher' fit the bill since it refers to foods technically forbidden but which a lot of Jewish people eat anyway. What I said was from this wiki, the relevant part of which is

As I hope is plain, I was referring to the Pande group, which seems to be implied here, not Pande himself. I think you are correct in that, for reasons that the wiki goes on to explain, the chances of this implementation producing bad data are minimal and since I plan to set up a farm next year I would dearly love for this method to be approved since I'm running out of cheap/free (all legit) Windows installs. On that, I have just realised that I still have a couple of XP liscences I can use for this rig so this isn't that much of an issue in this instance but, still, well worth having the debate.

 

Interesting.


Dave- Let us know how the Skeleton works out. I've wanted one since I saw previews but the press kinda put me off a bit.
Still tempted though for a laugh.

 

The implied official line from a third party wiki (referencing people close to the Folding@Home project, but not Pande) that isn't official at all, then?

That's the problem here. What you originally said is plain. ".... because the official line from Pande is that it isn't kosher ....." Plainly wrong! Neither the man, nor the group has made any official statement to say that using the GPU2 client with wine and the CUDA wrapper on Linux is not kosher, or please don't do it.

PS. I'm well aware of some of the things being discussed when the CUDA wrapper was originally being developed, not least that GPU2 was a beta client anyway (and still is for that matter) and even who those "people close to the Folding@Home project" referenced on that wiki are.

 

Fair enough JackOfAll, but we're kind of just arguing over semantics here, you yourself said

So you're happy to use it because they haven't officially said not to, and I'm not happy to use it because they haven't officially said that its OK to. At the end of the day, its a judgement call and since I know nothing of the internal workings of WINE, CUDA or the F@H source, I wouldn't feel justified in using software that hasn't been OK'ed. I'm only an undergrad, but I'm doing post-grad level research towards my masters in physics over here and every piece of software I use features in a paper which can be cited because that is standard practice in science. Since I wouldn't be comfortable (and more to the point, wouldn't get published) using unproven methods in my own research, I'm certainly not going to use them when contributing to some one else's.

 

No, it has nothing to do with semantics. The big picture - It has to do with someone reading this thread and immediately dismissing GPU2 folding on Linux because ......

• "it's said to be more difficult to get the GPU folding to work smoothly"
• "the official line from Pande is that it isn't kosher"

The first statement creates a negative impression based on no direct experience. Third-hand FUD. (Sorry, Christopher.)
The second statement is factually incorrect. Say that it is officially an "unsupported configuration" if you need to. That's fine and true. You'll hear no argument from me. The word "kosher" is associated with rules/laws regarding Jewish diet. "Isn't kosher" implies strongly that running the GPU2 client on Linux is against the rules/laws. It is compounded by the fact that you preface this by saying that is the official policy of Pande. It's not! That's not semantics in my opinion. What you said is totally misleading and simply not true.

 

OK,

Since that's a legitimate concern, I've edited the post above which did overstate the reasons I feel uncomfortable with Linux+WINE GPU clients so that others don't google it and take what I said as fact, you may want to do the same Jack, though please leave your posts up, I just wanted to remove the part which read like fact when it was largely my opinion.

Hopefully that provides a resolution and I don't intend to argue the point any further since I don't think either of us are going to be easy converts, and I'm sure we can both look forward to a native Linux GPU client in the future.

Back to the rig I'm putting together. I've made a few decisions regarding the setup which are based on the fact that I am using this as a feet-wetting expedition for a farm next year (when I'm back in the UK). To that end, I'll be using an IDE to CF adapter and 4Gb compact flash drive as the hard drive. This gives a minimal cost and wattage saving, but the real reason I want to do it is because of some rather ambitious plans for the farm. The basic idea is to have the cooling rely on mineral oil submersion with one pump per node and whatever distribution of radiators I find is necessary to run everything at a reasonable temperature. Many have contemplated water cooling such setups, but the complexity and cost scale very badly. On paper, mineral oil submersion will scale a lot better. Since a CF card can operate in those conditions and a mechanical drive can't, I need to check that a CF drive will actually last for a considerable time in a folding setup.

Finally, I've started sourcing some parts, got a bargain on the MSI K9A2 on ebay for $100 and am getting the 9800s for about $70-75 each from the same. A bit of a risk, but the cards come with a year guarantee and the mobo is new. These purchases alone mean I should be coming in under budget for the first time ever, and by some margin. The extra cash may well be put toward a quad-core for work which can fold whenever I'm not using it.

 

Thank you. (Not that I'm the forum police, anyway. Just trying to make sure that all things hurled in the general direction of Linux are factual, fair and balanced. )

Unfortunately, the success of Windows GPU2 client (under wine) may have adversely affected the need for, or current development priority of a native client, which would be a shame. I'd like to be proved wrong, but I won't be holding my breath in the meantime.

 

Not to put a downer on the "Linux and GPU2 client" thing, but many months ago I spent days trying to get it working with Ubuntu 8.04 and a 8800GTX, and to no avail. Even called in a favour with a Linux fiend, and made use of 'shatteredsilicon' on the official Folding forum - still no joy. Making it run under Windows was much more straight forward .... that doesn't mean I won't give it another go on Linux when I get a chance

 

Oooh, that sounds interesting - both the CF and the oil cooling. Let us know how you get on! There is an Australian custom-case builder who has an oil cooled system with a mechanical HDD located out of the oil on a little shelf ... can't find the thread now.

 

Fair enough, that's first-hand experience and if shatteredsilicon couldn't assist getting it working.... Well, I don't really know what to say. Except that, I'm not a Ubuntu user, so I don't know of any specific quirks, (excepting the 'old' versions of kernels - performance issues and conflict with the nVidia drivers which could be solved with the 'nopat' kernel option), but even so I know of many who have followed the Ubuntu step-by-step guide on the folding forum without any issues, and I'd expect to get a working setup by following it to the letter. I know the 8800GTX works just fine folding under Linux, I use one. I've talked people through the necessary steps over the telephone to get GPU2 up and running on Fedora. I've ssh'd into others remote machines to get it up and running. I've personally setup at least 6 machines in the last 3 months to GPU fold on Linux with nVidia hardware. I've used 8 series, 9 series, 200 series cards. Single cards, dual cards.... The only problem I've seen is with 1x GTX295, and that wasn't a Linux problem per se, the card would have been EUE'ing on Windows - faulty hardware.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this the past couple of days. I accept that setting up folding on Linux is not as simple as doing so on Windows. It doesn't help that the additional install of the CUDA toolkit is required on Linux, whereas a driver install provides everything you need on Windows, bar the client.exe itself. What started as a "simple howto document" for Fedora, has already veered off to providing rpm packages for the CUDA toolkit and wrapper. The idea being that 2x "yum install package1.rpm package2.rpm .....", whereby the first packages installed are for the config for the extra repos, eg. rpmfusion for the drivers, and the second "yum install ....." - the drivers, wine, CUDA toolkit, wrapper dll, etc. etc. Leaving only the GPU client to be downloaded and configured. No need for the user to ln (link) libraries on the filesystem, set the library path (ld.so.conf), or any of the other stuff that can be a reason for things not to just work - (like typos, or forgetting to run ldconfig....)

There are a few potholes that are easy enough to step into for the unwary, (not that I'm suggesting this was your problem), or for those new to Linux at the same time as getting folding up and running. I'd love to be in the position where I could say - if anyone can get Fedora installed from a CD to the point where they have network working and internet access, 2 command lines (package install only, that is either complete success or failure, no murky areas) stand between them having a working Linux CUDA folding platform. My logic says that from that point on, if the user cannot then download the GPU2 client zip file, extract to a directory and configure it - well, they probably wouldn't have managed it on Windows either. Firing up the client by sticking the word 'wine' in front of what would be the same Windows cmd line is not going to affect that.

You could say I've got a hard-on for making this idiot proof and repeatable time after time. Hearing about your problems GPU folding on Linux - that's just extra motivation, because it does work and it works well. So maybe if the initial hurdle of driver, CUDA and wine setup is removed - other people can have the same smooth experience I have, currently cranking out 80,000 GPU2 points per day on Linux with 8, 9 and 200 series hardware. Perhaps you'd even consider being a guinea pig, especially in light of the fact that you didn't get it working last time?

PS. Apologies to Deadpunkdave for being so off-topic in your thread.

 

Thanks, but I intend to make the cases custom. The basic plan for a node is to have a tub for mobo etc. with a grill above for PSU(s) to stand on. This is because one of the problems with mineral oil PCs is that the oil wicks up cables. This plan means that any oil that wicks to the PSU will simply drip back into the tank and there's no danger of a mechanical drive ever getting ruined. As even a splash could potentially be fatal, it's better to be safe than sorry. The reason, if anyone's wondering, for having the PSU(s) outside the oil is to stop it from heating up the oil; irregardless of what graphics cards are the sweet point for folding when I start building this thing, I predict needing every drop of that oil cooling the cards.

Ah! I have just realised I forgot to mention that as another test I will be using the slowest, lowest wattage processor I could find, the 4050e and am going to underclock/volt it to see just how crappy I can make it Again, every Watt I save from that is one less Watt heating up the oil.