Windows Windows 8 Marmite thread... Because you either love it or hate it.

[impar]

Greetings!

Originally Posted by boiled_elephant

Consequently, as soon as you start explaining that "Start -> All Programs" has become "Left Corner -> click -> blank space -> right click -> All apps", they get irate and grumble about how they'll just stick with the old machine until it breaks.

Are you still trying to explain Metro to them or have you gave up and just install Classic Shell?
Do you show them any other Start Menu alternative?

[dullonien]

That's all well and good boiled elephant, but you are basically saying that it is now impossible for Microsoft to try something new, because people are unwilling to learn a new way of doing something. The start screen isn't a big departure from the start menu, it really isn't a difficult thing to learn. Whether or not someone prefers it over the start menu, or even likes it, is a subjective thing, but to say that people are incapable of learning how to use it is simply absurd imo. People aren't that dumb, many are simply unwilling to even try though.

Microsoft cannot simply rest on its laurels and churn out the same Windows for eternity, and that is what some seem to want. They want the same Windows desktop, not because it's beyond question the best way to navigate a computer, but because they are accustomed to it and unwilling to at least see if there's something better out there. Microsoft will quickly get left behind if they don't attempt to innovate, because there will be companies out there who will, and because they are not 'responsible for people's workflow in their jobs', people will be more ready to accept their change.

The computer gui is changing because technology is changing, and the changes will be much more profound than the start screen. Why? Because the start menu doesn't suit being used on small screened devices such as tablets and smartphones, nor does it suit being used on tv's and other future connected devices. Edit: There's also the possibility of gesture based, voice activated and ultimately cognitive input, not to mention immersive virtual reality environments; and the start menu really, really doesn't suit any of those. The start screen is unlikely to be either, but it's an incremental step that adds touch to the mix. Some people would be happy to see MS keep mouse+kb input and touch input separate in terms of gui, but would they be happy to see separate gui's for kb+mouse, touch, speech, gesture and cognitive input, because there's every possibility that we'll all use a combination of these in the near(ish) future?

The way I see it MS has 3 choices:

1. They continue to push the start screen, because cutting people's ties with the start menu now is better than giving in and never being able to get away from it.
2. Completely overhaul their vision of future MS powered devices which at the moment is about complete transparency between all computer devices, with a persons workflow able to be seamlessly transferred from tablet, to desktop computer, to a large table like display, etc. etc.
3. Accept that there will be a division between mobile devices (specifically tablets and smartphones) and desktop pc's.

Edit. I simply don't buy the 'computer illiterate users are unable to use modern-UI' thing, because the modern-UI is easier for the computer illiterate (this is exemplified by how easy young children pick it up in comparison for the desktop with start menu). The truth is that they don't want to have to learn something new. That's a valid criticism, but imo having to learn a new way of navigating Windows is inevitable, so if they don't do it now, they will only have to do it in the future when the learning curve is even steeper. Simply installing classic shell on every copy of Windows 8 isn't really helping the user in the long run imo, although I don't blame you for doing so.

[Nexxo]

Boiled_elephant, I disagree.

First, many ordinary people (who I refer to as 'muggles' with as much of a tongue-in-cheek implication that we assume ourselves to be 'wizards') have no problem with Windows 8 at all. Partly because they have no preconceptions about what it should be, and partly because they are fairly flexible people who quickly get their head around a new principle, and partly also because --shock, horror-- once they do, they find that Windows 8 GUI actually does function quite well.

I am currently posting this from a hotel where I am on a residential course, on my Surface RT. I have been using it for note taking in lectures (OneNote is cheesecake), while in breaks answering work emails, pulling up course documents and browsing the web. My decidedly non-techie colleagues are thoroughly impressed by it. They have played with it and one has declared that she is going to buy one. This is not an uncommon reaction when people actually get to spend some time with the device rather than get scared off by prejudiced and uninformed reviewers. Keep in mind: these are people who are already familiar with the iPad, who own iPhones or Android smartphones. It's not as if they have not been exposed to GUIs different from Windows 7. They do not find a Windows 8 GUI that much of a challenge at all.

The people who don't like Windows 8 are complaining not about the Start Screen and charms, but about change. They were happy doing things the way they did them because that's how they learned to do them. They did not wonder whether there were better ways of doing it; it's just how things were done. It's a natural human tendency. Gears were always changed with gear sticks. Then wheel paddle shift came along. I'm sure some people would complain about that because they're not used to it. If they persist and get used to it, they find out that actually it's faster and better.

As Ford said: "I'd I'd have given the customer what they wanted, I would have sold them a faster horse".

In the end it is First World Problems: a sense of overentitlement to an easy life without challenge or learning (water supply issues are a Third World problem). Microsoft does not hold the world of computing to ransom. People abandoned their Windows PCs and bought the iPad in droves when it came along, regardless of the fact that iOS is a very different GUI from Windows. They were not only free to do so; they had no problem with it at all! They accepted that a new device means a new interface and a new way of doing things, and blow me if it didn't actually work better for most of their common home computing tasks.

Now all of a sudden a minor change in Windows 8 GUI is a huge insurmountable problem that holds people's lives to ransom and grinds businesses to a halt? Exaggerate much? It is just made out to be the end of days by the minority of people who don't like change, because people don't like change. Rather than infantilising them by assuming that they cannot learn and sticking a Classic Shell plaster on it, perhaps you could show them how Windows 8 works and teach them to use it. It only takes five minutes, and it may work wonders for their IT confidence.

[dullonien]

Originally Posted by Nexxo

As Ford said: "If I'd have given the customer what they wanted, I would have sold them a faster horse".

That's a perfect analogy imo. So true. Architects would still be drafting by hand as well (I still know some who are adamant they are more efficient drawing by hand than if they learnt how to use CAD. That translates to: 'I don't want to have to learn'. Perfectly fair (if not short sighted), learning CAD is a big undertaking, learning the start screen really isn't...

Maybe the benefits of the start screen isn't immediately apparent at the moment, but the benefits are likely to come in the near future when devices are multi-use, as Nexxo, myself and others have stated in the past. Mobile Phones are a perfect example of how consumers want multi-use devices, why own a mobile, compact camera, video recorder and mp3 player when a single device can do the job of all of them? Why carry around multiple items, why fork out the money for multiple items? Edit: In the same instance, why would someone like my parents want to purchase multiple computer devices to do what they require when buying one tablet which can be docked to a keyboard and used as a laptop, or docked to a large screen (or multiple screens) + kb&mouse and be used as a desktop computer, or even be used as a media centre device with the screen wirelessly transmitted to the TV? They require a PC for relatively simple tasks, browsing the net, checking e-mails, keeping the farm accounts, watching iplayer, managing pictures and music. They don't do any real CPU intensive tasks, or game, so why wouldn't a single tablet style device (or one each) be enough for their needs? Windows 8 allows this, unlike previous versions of Windows.

[GoodBytes]

Ha! Good ad from Microsoft:

[RichCreedy]

Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Ha! Good ad from Microsoft:

is that real, I like it, lol

[theshadow2001]

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/05/m...-unity8-future

Mark Shuttleworths(canonical/ubuntu) opinion of windows 8

Bold choices, right vision, stumbled at the gate but the race is just beginning.

Change is hard. The vision of convergence is the right one so i respect Microsoft for seeing that and focusing on that, but they stumbled with the actual release.

I think they left their actual desktop too much in the past (Win 7.5) and the pushed their tablet too much to the foreground (tiles with a mouse). But they are smart and hungry and being an underdog is wonderfully motivating.

For example they are doing a very impressive job on being an open cloud Azure has been transformed from PAAS into IAAS, and in many regards, damn-good-IAAS too.

Sorry to disappoint the prejudiced.

[Archtronics]

On a different note it will be interesting to see if the voice and hand gestures from the xbox demo get integrated into windows 8. I think the company that really pins down voice control something not to dissimilar to Jarvis in iron man will put themselves in a strong position.

[loftie]

Originally Posted by Archtronics

On a different note it will be interesting to see if the voice and hand gestures from the xbox demo get integrated into windows 8. I think the company that really pins down voice control something not to dissimilar to Jarvis in iron man will put themselves in a strong position.

More importantly, if you're playing LoL you can punch the screen and it can be translated to send in chat "F*ING NOOOOOOB!!!1!!"

[impar]

Greetings!

Originally Posted by Nexxo

As Ford said: "I'd I'd have given the customer what they wanted, I would have sold them a faster horse".

At the time Fords customers could buy a horse or a car or a dragon or a robot or a plane or...
Now Microsoft customers can only buy Windows.

[Nexxo]

Yeah, because in 1908 Ford sold horses, dragons, robots and planes as well as cars.

You really have to stop doing the magic mushrooms, impar.

[GoodBytes]

Originally Posted by Nexxo

You really have to stop doing the magic mushrooms, impar.

No one told him that the mushroom that grow in the backyard aren't the same as the one you buy in the store.

[boiled_elephant]

Gracefully ignoring that slight detour...

Originally Posted by Nexxo

The people who don't like Windows 8 are complaining not about the Start Screen and charms, but about change. They were happy doing things the way they did them because that's how they learned to do them. They did not wonder whether there were better ways of doing it; it's just how things were done. It's a natural human tendency. Gears were always changed with gear sticks. Then wheel paddle shift came along. I'm sure some people would complain about that because they're not used to it. If they persist and get used to it, they find out that actually it's faster and better.

As Ford said: "I'd I'd have given the customer what they wanted, I would have sold them a faster horse".

In the end it is First World Problems: a sense of overentitlement to an easy life without challenge or learning (water supply issues are a Third World problem). Microsoft does not hold the world of computing to ransom. People abandoned their Windows PCs and bought the iPad in droves when it came along, regardless of the fact that iOS is a very different GUI from Windows. They were not only free to do so; they had no problem with it at all! They accepted that a new device means a new interface and a new way of doing things, and blow me if it didn't actually work better for most of their common home computing tasks.

Now all of a sudden a minor change in Windows 8 GUI is a huge insurmountable problem that holds people's lives to ransom and grinds businesses to a halt? Exaggerate much? It is just made out to be the end of days by the minority of people who don't like change, because people don't like change. Rather than infantilising them by assuming that they cannot learn and sticking a Classic Shell plaster on it, perhaps you could show them how Windows 8 works and teach them to use it. It only takes five minutes, and it may work wonders for their IT confidence.

I take your point, and agree that most of these people are unwilling rather than unable to learn. It's always frustrated me that they're unwilling to learn, but I've come to accept it as a constant now: the sun rises, the sun sets, Mac users are condescending, PC users fear change.

The main problem we face is that, beyond just being afraid of trying new things, many of our customers actively dislike learning new things because they actively dislike computers. They have to use them, but they never particularly wanted to use them. As such, they are only willing to give computers the bare minimum amount of time. It is an entitlement complex, yes - to the tune of "I gave computers half an hour of learning time ten years ago, now I deserve to be able to use them forever without learning any more". (I suppose it derives from driving license logic: once you've managed to do it, you should automatically be able to do it forever.) But it's a deeply rooted sentiment, and having it challenged is a huge deal for most of our customers, so we've avoided challenging it.

BUT I think there is more to their frustration than just stubborn ludditism; there are other, more valid concerns.

Normally, when a change is made, there is an evident purpose: the oft-compared Ribbon menu in Microsoft Office, while a sharp adjustment, visibly improved Office's usability, so people were (mostly) willing to adjust. Seeing why it's changed helps people come round to the change. But when people ask us why Microsoft have changed to Metro Start (and it is usually their first question), the only answer we can give is: touchscreens. This is an irritating response, because of course touchscreens aren't relevant to their usage and never will be.

Nexxo, I understand that you see all computing converging on touchscreen and portable technology, and that you're pleased to see Microsoft accurately predicting that shift. But given just how many people still use a keyboard+mouse setup, don't you think the complete and sudden switch (rather than using Windows 8 as an intermediate platform that addressed both needs) was hasty? Keyboards and mice may be yesteryear's interface in your forward-looking view, but they're just not dead yet. Tonnes of people still use them, and will do for years and years to come. In light of that, the suggestion that Microsoft are merely being forward-thinking and getting the transition over with in short order doesn't add up. Businesses and offices are not going to be migrating away from keyboard+mouse setups any time soon - or at all, probably - because touchscreens are simply much less suitable for continuous typing.

I know that Microsoft were wholly set on the disappearance of keyboard+mouse setups when they designed Windows 8. My point is that this is never going to happen; you and Microsoft are both overestimating the technological shift. You project it forwards and see it eliminating keyboards, but it won't - it can't. So for grudging muggles*, the switch to Metro Start isn't just a difficult adjustment and aesthetically unpleasant (and I still can't stress enough how much of each it has been to most of our customers who've seen it), it's also pointless and misaimed. It's a change that isn't meant for them, and they know it, but they're forced through it anyway. It's meant for touchscreens: anyone who uses it immediately knows that. With a mouse, it's slower to use than the Windows XP start menu (which remains the quickest layout).

We aren't spending any time trying to help our customers adjust to Metro Start any more. We wanted to provide them with the most comfortable and pleasing experience, and for these sorts of customers, that's a Start menu. The announcement of Service Pack 1 galvanized that decision, as pretty soon it won't be our judgement call to make at all - they'll be able to just use a Start menu from the off.

Lastly, I just want to retread an earlier point and say that the bad aesthetic responses to Windows 8 are valid feedback too, and absolutely should be weighed in when judging Windows 8's merits. It's been said several times that it's subjective, but as someone noted way back, subjective doesn't mean immeasurable. It can be measured comparatively, and should be. A huge proportion of users have reported disliking the way Windows 8 looks, and in case you're thinking that this doesn't mean anything, bear in mind that Windows 7, Android and iOS have pretty much not experienced this at all. Nobody has deplored them as "butt-ugly" in so many words on so many blogs and forums, and I think we should acknowledge that.

(I guess the thread title does sort of acknowledge it, but you guys keep trying to sweep it under the carpet now.)

*I hate to admit it but it works.

[Nexxo]

The Omega Corporation, a research and consultation company specializing in effecting change in the workplace, found that whenever a change occurs, the employees break down into three categories:

25% resent and hate the change, and may actively try and block or even sabotage it;
60% are unsure and ambivalent but can be won over;
15% embrace it wholeheartedly and run with it.

Interestingly this proportion seems to occur everywhere, with any change. It's kind of a universal law; it's human nature at work (I have my theories around this but won't bore you). It certainly seems to be how people have reacted to Windows 8. 60 million licences active; 15 million downloads of Start Menu replacements. 25%; go figure.

People have no problems adopting touch screens. It's why tablets are doing so well. The people who are asking you: "Why?" ("WHY???") the changes in Windows 8 are the 25% who don't like it; they are in the second stage of grief (anger). The rest obviously won't question what they experience as an improvement or are at least not fussed by.

I don't think that Microsoft has been hasty at all. I think it's come late to the party, if anything. Apart from having to click a bottom left corner instead of a Start Button, and getting a Start Screen rather than a Start Menu, the desktop and keyboard is functionally more or less exactly the same. It's even included on Surface, a friggin' tablet. If anything, Microsoft really values the desktop and keyboard paradigm for doing real work and markets it as a major selling point on their tablet.

But it also has handwriting recognition, out of the box, which the iPad has not. You are really misunderstanding Microsoft. It is not aiming to replace the desktop and keyboard; it is aiming to expand to other devices and input methods which are coming. It may interest you to know that the NHS is exploring the possibility of switching to dictated electronic notes in the next five years --that is: talking to a computer which turns speech into printed text. It is not the only business doing so. Some legal firms are already there. This **** is getting real, real soon.

As for aesthetics: until Ice Cream Sandwich, Android was searing my eyeballs out ugly. Windows was ugly until it hit Vista. Only MacOS, OSX, iOS and various Linux installs can make a claim to being aesthetically pleasing. Windows has some way to go, but if Metro is so ugly, how come everybody is copying the 'flat' style all of a sudden? "It's ugly" is just the response you are getting from the 25% who just don't like anything about it at all.

[dullonien]

Originally Posted by boiled_elephant

Nexxo, I understand that you see all computing converging on touchscreen and portable technology, and that you're pleased to see Microsoft accurately predicting that shift. But given just how many people still use a keyboard+mouse setup, don't you think the complete and sudden switch (rather than using Windows 8 as an intermediate platform that addressed both needs) was hasty? Keyboards and mice may be yesteryear's interface in your forward-looking view, but they're just not dead yet. Tonnes of people still use them, and will do for years and years to come. In light of that, the suggestion that Microsoft are merely being forward-thinking and getting the transition over with in short order doesn't add up. Businesses and offices are not going to be migrating away from keyboard+mouse setups any time soon - or at all, probably - because touchscreens are simply much less suitable for continuous typing.

I don't think Nexxo, or anyone else in this thread has said that they believe the future is based solely around touch-screens. What Nexxo and others foresee is a multi-use device that acts as a tablet when out and about, a laptop when docked into a keyboard cover (the surface basically), but with a docking system that allows large monitor(s) and keyboard+mouse to be hooked up when required. An office employee could take his system with him to meetings etc.

So I fully agree, kb+mouse is here to stay for the foreseeable future, but so is touch, and others will be added in time (voice etc.). Windows 8 is about adding touch, not about taking away kb+mouse.

Originally Posted by boiled_elephant

We aren't spending any time trying to help our customers adjust to Metro Start any more. We wanted to provide them with the most comfortable and pleasing experience, and for these sorts of customers, that's a Start menu. The announcement of Service Pack 1 galvanized that decision, as pretty soon it won't be our judgement call to make at all - they'll be able to just use a Start menu from the off.

I was under the impression that the start menu would not return with 8.1. The start button will return, not the menu. The start button will still take you to the start screen.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by Nexxo

It may interest you to know that the NHS is exploring the possibility of switching to dictated electronic notes in the next five years --that is: talking to a computer which turns speech into printed text. It is not the only business doing so. Some legal firms are already there. This **** is getting real, real soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nALhD...oTYTeg&index=7

I thought of this video when you mentioned that. If you click on the transcript icon (just below the likes bar to the right of "add to") you can behold the wonders of modern speech to text recognition. Its great if you are an American who talks slow and clearly, everyone else in the world however...not so much.

[Nexxo]

I know a Scottish lawyer who swears by Dragon Dictate. It's been exponentially improving in just a few years.

I mean, we've got the latest version of Kinect recognising facial expressions and even reading pulse/heart rate by minute colour changes caused by flushing of facial capillary blood vessels. My Surface RT recognises my handwritten scrawl. I think that reliable speech recognition is not beyond today's tech.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by Nexxo

I know a Scottish lawyer who swears by Dragon Dictate. It's been exponentially improving in just a few years.

I mean, we've got the latest version of Kinect recognising facial expressions and even reading pulse/heart rate by minute colour changes caused by flushing of facial capillary blood vessels. My Surface RT recognises my handwritten scrawl. I think that reliable speech recognition is not beyond today's tech.

I think its slightly beyond it, but its not far off at all. Its a useful tool in certain situations but such a head wrecker in an office or any communal environment.