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Old 9th Mar 2014, 23:57   #141
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Originally Posted by KayinBlack View Post
What that boils down to is if gay people sin, they do so no more than the rest of us
We've been together for 13 years. We both work. We've got 7yo twins, one of whom needs one of her mom's in with her throughout the night for medical reasons.

Time to sin? Those were the days!
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 00:05   #142
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I just want to say, with the exception of a few clearly illogical and evasive comments (you know what I'm talking about), this thread is a great read. The opinions here are exactly what I expected from you great people and in line with pretty much everyone I've met throughout my life.

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Originally Posted by Mr Everyman
Gay Marriage? Yeah, whatever, no skin off my nose, not sure what my dad would think though.What's on the telly later? Have you seen the rain outside? Awful about the Ukraine right? Fancy a curry tomorrow? Where did I leave my keys? This right idiot cut me up on the way home. He's up in court for what? I thought he was dead. Hear about that plane crash? I see Cameron's become a Meme again. Who broke it? Okay, I'll fix it at the weekend. It cost how much? But you already have two!
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 00:27   #143
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I hope you understand that I mean no offense with what I say-rather, I'm still working to ensure that your rights are equal to mine.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 08:31   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwisdom
And is there anything wrong with giving them the same rights?
You tell me.

A legal framework that would give homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples who are married

Understand the difference between human rights and a group that imposes itself onto the heterosexual institution of marriage. I have recognized the same legal framework that would give homosexuals the same rights as heterosexual couples who are married. I have repeatedly done so.

This is what you would call a compromise.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 08:35   #145
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If legally it's exactly the same, then why not call it by the same name of marriage?
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 08:42   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwisdom
However, how about ancient Greece?
If you want to discuss and compare the cultural norms of ancient Greece and the Roman Empire to those of ours we could do that.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 08:58   #147
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I'd just settle for you answering our questions. But I'm sure work calls!


We have an infinite loop here:




So we now know that walle really likes his definition of marriage to remain unchanged and unchallenged. Unfortunately he cannot explain why. Probably he doesn't know himself; it's one of those irrational human things, I suppose.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 09:16   #148
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The last post explains the debate dichotomy perfectly. One uses logic while the other prefers to wallow in tradition for the sake of it. One is progressive, one is regressive. I know which one will end up on the right side of history, as history has shown us numerous times.

Walle....enjoy being in the minority. Hopefully, one day you will be discriminated against in the same way you suggest for certain groups now. As crazy as it is, the 'liberals' will probably try to help you when that happens. Funny how things go round in circles huh?
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 09:54   #149
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Yeah, walle has quoted Spec and eddie_dane in his sig, but I don't think he has actually thought about it.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 10:20   #150
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Thought I'd just pop in here to add another person to the list of those who don't understand how letting gay people marry negatively affects the institution of marriage apart from some people thinking it no longer 'pure'.

You say they're imposing on you, but I don't see how, your rights stay the same, it's theirs which change. :/
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 10:53   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
A legal framework that would give homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples who are married
But as I've said before, it's not the same set of rights. It's mostly the same rights, but without the right to call themselves married.

So again I ask (Hopefully you'll respond this time). Would you support the abolishment of all marriage ? It would seem to me that as you feel that losing the right to call oneself married is not an infringement of rights there's no downside to this?

I find your approach too similar to segregation and apartheid for comfort.

Of course blacks have the same right to ride the bus as white folk. Just not on my end of the bus

Of course those black kids have exactly the same right to an education as white kids. Just not in the same schools as white kids.

You seem happy justifying your discrimination based on this lame angle of you're not infringing someone's rights.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 10:56   #152
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I think Cthippo explained it rather well in post #129. Some people resist change in societal values and concepts because they perceive it as a change in their living circumstances and change scares them. They view change with great suspicion. Things were fine the way they were, so change has to be bad, right?

Of course people who feel that way usually do not feel disadvantaged by the current state of society. Not many higher socio-economic class straight white men feel that society is skewed. If walle were gay, he might feel differently. But he isn't (I suspect he is a lower middle class --well-off enough to endorse the status quo, but still poor enough to feel insecure-- straight white male who hasn't suffered discrimination a day in his life), so he likes things just the way things are and screw everybody else.

It's as simple as that, really. He just can't explain that to himself, let alone to others, because that insight is too threatening, so he keeps avoiding those pesky challenging questions and keeps trying to divert into straw man arguments.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 11:16   #153
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Kind of like thehippoz but without the overt projection?

Man he was weird.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 11:23   #154
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He was pretty funny though.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 12:52   #155
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Wore thin after a while. And he was weird.

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Kind of like thehippoz but without the overt projection?
Pretty much.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 13:10   #156
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He just can't explain that to himself, let alone to others, because that insight is too threatening, so he keeps avoiding those pesky challenging questions and keeps trying to divert into straw man arguments.
Sounds like pretty much every Religious person I ever met!
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 14:54   #157
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Sounds like pretty much every Religious person I ever met!
Then I suggest that you've met the dumb ones. My posting about equality and the Bible? Yeah, degree in theology, former minister and still an apologist (which does not mean the same as apologizing by a long shot.) Some of us seek to learn and grow, and don't find it contradictory to our faith. Some of us even embrace science, recognizing that it doesn't answer the same questions as faith at all.

Every person must be viewed on the basis of their individual merit, not grouped according to the actions of others. To do so is the same kind of discrimination we're talking about here.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 15:37   #158
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Then I suggest that you've met the dumb ones. My posting about equality and the Bible? Yeah, degree in theology, former minister and still an apologist (which does not mean the same as apologizing by a long shot.) Some of us seek to learn and grow, and don't find it contradictory to our faith. Some of us even embrace science, recognizing that it doesn't answer the same questions as faith at all.

Every person must be viewed on the basis of their individual merit, not grouped according to the actions of others. To do so is the same kind of discrimination we're talking about here.
On the contrary, In some ways, I think the xtians such as yourself are a godsend....to coin a phrase, but on the other hand, they are the most insidious of them all. If it weren't for xtians such as yourself, religion would have died out already. I feel you are only delaying the inevitable, in any case, and the figures/evidence seem to back that up.

There can be no relationship between religion and science/logic. They are diametrically opposed. All you are doing is sitting on the fence, hedging your bets. In reality, you are a humanist without the courage to dump the superstitions yet

The reason science and faith don't answer the same questions is because faith answers none. Indeed, in most cases, it seeks to answer none for definite, because if you look too closely, the whole system falls flat on it's face.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. It is not. I abhor religion, not the practitioners. Those I only pity, and sit in hope of them one day seeing the real light...one made of photons, not sheepherders' stories to keep them company and keep their women in fear.

I would imagine, in many ways, we are alike. I try my best to do good, for the sake of doing good. I'll never do anyone a bad turn, but I suggest that I do it not in fear of a supposed afterlife of eternal retribution by an 'all loving' god.

If there is one thing I despise, it's hypocrisy. Unfortunately, for one to be religious, and follow the teachings of any holy book, it means that they HAVE to be a hypocrite. It is intrinsic.

You may think, being the liberal voice of the church, that you are somehow closer to your sky daddy than others that practice religion in a slightly different way to you, but in reality, you are just the same. If your/their religion poured the same effort/money into purely scientific endeavours, who knows where the human race would be now. Instead, the organised religions dominate massive amounts to spend on idolatry etc, while people die from preventable disease and church led ignorance.

I will freely admit to being like Walle in this respect, in that you will find it hard to change my view on this subject. I am too well read on the subject to be influenced by flower in the hair shenanigans.

The difference between Walle and myself though, is that I have amillion reasons for the way I feel about it.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 16:17   #159
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Let's widen it up a bit and regard faith as an example of philosophy. Are philosophy and science diametrically opposed? I would say that they are complementary; one provides answers (or at least pertinent questions and ways of thinking about things) that the other can't.

Science, for instance, tells us how to cure disease, but it makes no comment on why we should do it. One result of this is private health care, US-style: impressive medicine but only for those who can afford it. Not exactly the human progress we were hoping for...

Other important aspects of human life and its condition cannot be answered by science either: Should people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Should gay people be able to marry? Are all people equal in value and importance? Just because science can, does this mean it should? When we have tried to come up with scientific answers to those questions, we have ended up in quite a mess. Eugenics, phrenology, weapons of mass destruction... I guess it's the wrong framework for those questions.

And I haven't even touched on other human qualia: what is love? What is beauty? What is truth? What is happiness? Do these things matter?

Philosophy however is about the why: the meaning of life, the ethics, the fundamental values and concepts that we embrace. I'd say that is pretty important stuff. Science tells us how to cure disease, how to grow enough food for everybody, how to generate clean drinking water; it helps us create quality of life. Philosophy tells is why we should do this, not just for ourselves but for the whole of humanity. Science can in a reductionistic manner explain love, but only philosophy can understand it in a meaningful way. The way to Eden is through the tools of both philosophy and science. We need both to build the republic of heaven.

Quote:
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I try my best to do good, for the sake of doing good.
What good does it do to tell a man with a terminal illness that his belief in God and an afterlife is misguided and wrong? Science is not always the best way of looking at things; sometimes philosophy is.
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 16:36   #160
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I couldn't agree more with the explanation of Philosophy, which I consider a form of science of the unknown/unknowable. Religion is not philosophy though, religion is superstition, illogical thought patterns, social control and downright lies to further the needs of the few at the expense of the many.

When something does more harm than good, generally society does away with it. The problem with religion is that it has such a hold over the less intelligent/enlightened of society, it seems to keep its foothold.

If there weren't such a taboo regarding the criticism of religion, more people would be enlightened and informed. The so called 'New atheists' understand this and are actively and openly criticizing religion where it matters. Messers Dawkins, Krauss, Tyson, Hitchens (RIP) et al. are bringing the important issues to the forefront, where they belong.

For anyone that disagrees with this, I challenge them to find a debate which includes any of them against any prominent apologist where they end up losing. I'll save you some time, they NEVER lose. Not because they are good at arguing their corner, but because they have truth and evidence on their side. When it comes down to it, that is all that really matters...truth and evidence.

Oh, and science makes plenty of comments on why we should cure disease. Science is learning all the time to be more moralistic. that's the beauty of scientists, they don't hide when they are wrong, they put their results out and challenge peers to tell them why they are wrong. Probably the most morally astute thing anyone could possibly do, in my opinion.
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