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Old 17th May 2017, 14:47   #7721
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Especially when statistically, the prevalence of stupidity outnumbers malice --just.
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Old 17th May 2017, 16:13   #7722
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Originally Posted by cjmUK View Post
People currently pay 40% between 45k and 150K.

So under those new rates, people would pay an extra 5% between 80k and 123k and an additional 5% on incomes above 123K.

So if you earn 123k, you will pay an extra £2,150 (5% of 43k).

Before: £37,900 income tax
After : £40,050 income tax

So they are one order of magnitude out.

However, I'd put this down to Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Thanks for explaining that in simple terms for maths dummies like me cjmUK.

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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Especially when statistically, the prevalence of stupidity outnumbers malice --just.
I'm living proof of that.

EDIT: In other news apparently the result of the referendum hasn't caused families to be worse off, it was natural fluctuations in the value of the pound.

Last edited by Corky42; 17th May 2017 at 16:26.
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Old 17th May 2017, 19:24   #7723
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After 'fake news' we now have 'fake exchange rates'.
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Old 18th May 2017, 16:44   #7724
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The thing is the Conservatives can't let the idea that the referendum is the cause of peoples problems to take hold, if it did it would inevitably lead to some very awkward questions being asked, like why did they hold the referendum if it meant leaving would make people poorer.

Eventually the answer would crystallize into how they were hemorrhaging voters to UKIP just like Labour had lost voters to the Lib Dems and the SNP in the past, if the electorate kept splitting their vote between us and UKIP getting elected would've become much harder.

If that idea took hold the electorate would see the referendum for what it truly was, a party putting their own self-interests before those of the country and electorate, that idea can't be allowed to take hold before they've had a chance to construct a scapegoat.
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Old 18th May 2017, 17:02   #7725
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The narrative Tory HQ is trying to spin of `Red Tory` is unbelievable
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:55   #7726
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But the electorate will believe it.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:14   #7727
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Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
The narrative Tory HQ is trying to spin of `Red Tory` is unbelievable
I believe it and I don't like it.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:49   #7728
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I really don't understand the logic that holding the referendum was wrong. It's a big issue and democracy dictates that people have a chance express their will.

What was wrong was the the ignorance, the xenophobia and the hubris that made people vote for Brexit... The result was wrong, not the asking of the question.

That said, the Yes/No alternatives were designed to give a very unambiguous result. In or out? However, a more nuanced question would have been more sensible: eg. perhaps 'completely out (ASAP)', 'Negotiate for changes in status', 'stay as we are'.

Furthermore, the referendum was non-binding. It is perfectly democratic to say (in a representative democracy) that though the people expressed a desire to leave, we've looked into the detail and consequences and the harm to the country would be too great, therefore we (your representatives) have decided on a different course.... which might be 'stay in', 'negotiate further', 'hold a referendum on the terms of exit'.

The most infuriating soundbite: 'Brexit means Brexit'. No, it doesn't have to, actually.

I've just renewed my broadband contract; I have 14 days to reflect and decide if I want to back out. I've just had an Audible book refunded because after listening to 2hrs worth, the book is doing my head in. And I'm returning some bluetooth headphones; although they work as described, the audio quality/tone isn't right - on paper these were fine, but when I got my hands on them, I found they didn't meet my expectations.

So the factthat we've made an ill-informed decision does not mean we are committed to it come hell or high water. Like any other aspect of life, we should review progress and if there are reasons to change direction, we change direction.
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:10   #7729
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Originally Posted by cjmUK View Post
I really don't understand the logic that holding the referendum was wrong. It's a big issue and democracy dictates that people have a chance express their will.
If it was such a big issue then why wasn't there more UKIP MPs, why did the conservatives feel the need to promise a referendum when the only party calling for one got 3.1% of the vote in 2010 and 12.6% of the vote in 2015?

If it was such a big issue why isn't Mr Farage currently our PM?

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Originally Posted by cjmUK View Post
Furthermore, the referendum was non-binding. It is perfectly democratic to say (in a representative democracy) that though the people expressed a desire to leave, we've looked into the detail and consequences and the harm to the country would be too great, therefore we (your representatives) have decided on a different course.... which might be 'stay in', 'negotiate further', 'hold a referendum on the terms of exit'.
Very true, although i suspect that wouldn't serve our politicians self interests.

Last edited by Corky42; 19th May 2017 at 10:16.
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:15   #7730
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Originally Posted by cjmUK View Post
The result was wrong, not the asking of the question.
If the Cameron government had done their job clarifying the consequences would the result have been the same? Personally I doubt it.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:58   #7731
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Is a strong and stable government for Brexit really worth this?

Quote:
Theresa May is planning to introduce huge regulations on the way the internet works, allowing the government to decide what is said online.

Particular focus has been drawn to the end of the manifesto, which makes clear that the Tories want to introduce huge changes to the way the internet works.
...
Quote:
Senior Tories confirmed to BuzzFeed News that the phrasing indicates that the government intends to introduce huge restrictions on what people can post, share and publish online.

The plans will allow Britain to become "the global leader in the regulation of the use of personal data and the internet", the manifesto claims.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:00   #7732
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
If it was such a big issue then why wasn't there more UKIP MPs, why did the conservatives feel the need to promise a referendum when the only party calling for one got 3.1% of the vote in 2010 and 12.6% of the vote in 2015?

If it was such a big issue why isn't Mr Farage currently our PM?



Very true, although i suspect that wouldn't serve our politicians self interests.
I hope you're not pretending not to understand FPTP. And iirc a referendum was part of the conservative platform at the election and they got a majority.


I voted remain and I would prefer if we didn't leave, but I don't think was can say that the electorate shouldn't be allowed a referendum if there is a risk they would vote the 'wrong' way. Part of a democratic system is that people need to accept that they won't always get their own way.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:28   #7733
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What does the FPTP voting system have to do with the relative support of a particular policy, the SNP hold 54 out of 59 seats and their raison d'être was to hold a referendum, how is that any different than electing UKIP whose raison d'être is to hold an EU referendum, that is until the Conservatives became so worried about splitting their vote that they adopted UKIP's policy.

It's not about if, or if not, the electorate should be allowed a referendum, it's about the logic that holding the referendum was wrong. It's a big issue and democracy dictates that people have a chance express their will, as cjmUK said.

If as was said, and is now starting to materialise, leaving the EU would cause harm to the UK then why did the Conservatives promise to hold one in the first place, why not just let UKIP get elected.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:36   #7734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
If it was such a big issue then why wasn't there more UKIP MPs, why did the conservatives feel the need to promise a referendum when the only party calling for one got 3.1% of the vote in 2010 and 12.6% of the vote in 2015?

If it was such a big issue why isn't Mr Farage currently our PM?
If it wasn't such a big issue, why are we currently heading blindly towards brexit?

There are a thousand reason the most ardent brexiteers would not want to have voted UKIP, despite agreeing on the European issue. They may have been the only party calling for an exit from Europe, but as we have seen post-referendum, there are plenty of MPs willing to play along now.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:45   #7735
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From the link Corky42 posted...

Quote:
The plans will allow Britain to become "the global leader in the regulation of the use of personal data and the internet", the manifesto claims.
A political party of a supposedly free and democratic country saying that is the equivalent of the Pope saying he wants to be the world leader in promoting Satanism.
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Old 19th May 2017, 13:03   #7736
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If it wasn't such a big issue, why are we currently heading blindly towards brexit?
Because the Conservatives put holding a referendum in their manifesto, however you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to make, that being why the Conservatives put that in their manifesto in the first place.

You can't say because it was a big issue for the country as if it was UKIP would've got more than 3.1% of the vote in 2010 and 12.6% of the vote in 2015, it may have been a big issue for some people but not for the country as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmUK View Post
There are a thousand reason the most ardent brexiteers would not want to have voted UKIP, despite agreeing on the European issue. They may have been the only party calling for an exit from Europe, but as we have seen post-referendum, there are plenty of MPs willing to play along now.
If people weren't willing to vote for UKIP then leaving the EU can't have been a big issue.

The reason there's so many MP willing to play along now are the very same reason the Conservatives put holding a referendum in their manifesto in the first place, Douglas Carswell didn't exist in isolation.
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Old 19th May 2017, 13:53   #7737
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You can't say because it was a big issue for the country as if it was UKIP would've got more than 3.1% of the vote in 2010 and 12.6% of the vote in 2015, it may have been a big issue for some people but not for the country as a whole.

If people weren't willing to vote for UKIP then leaving the EU can't have been a big issue.
I ask again, if it wasn't a big issue, why did the majority of the country vote for brexit? If it was not a big issue, surely just UKIP supporters would have voted yes?

People generally do not, and should generally not, vote for a party over just one issue. UKIP were virtually a single issue party, so why vote for them and take pot luck on the NHS, the economy, defence, education? Sure they had token policies in all areas, but their raison d'etre was solely to get us out of Europe.

The bottom line is that the population narrowly voted for brexit, and parliament is partly eager to oblige and partly too spineless to resist. It's not Cameron's fault - it's everyone's fault.

And most of us are going to have plenty of time to regret it.
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Old 19th May 2017, 17:23   #7738
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There's a big difference between something being a big issue and just an issue, that's what happens when you present people with a binary choice, you have no idea how strongly people believe in each choice, it's like me asking you to chose between being kicked in the left or right family jewels and then after you've chosen your left love spud i proclaim you like being kicked in the coin purse.

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question i asked BTW instead of just talking over it.

Look I'm not saying the EU wasn't an issue, I'm saying it wasn't a big issue, at least not big enough that a majority of people voted for a party whose raison d'être was to hold a referendum like the SNP, the single issue party thing really doesn't come into it because the issue presented to the electorate in the referendum is of such a magnitude that it effects everything.

If you think about why the referendum was held in the first place you'd find the real cause of Brexit, lets not forget that unlike in Scotland it didn't take a party rising to power whose raison d'être was to hold a referendum.

Like i said why did the conservatives feel the need to promise a referendum, if it was such a big issue why isn't Mr Farage currently our PM?
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Old 20th May 2017, 10:10   #7739
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Thing is, EU membership wasn't a big issue for the UK electorate. Some people didn't even realise that the UK was a member. The Referendum party only got 7% of the vote in 1997; UKIP got only one MP in Parliament --and he was a Tory defector. The EU was just something to blame for your bad day on occasion, like the weather, or indeed the prevailing UK government.

EU membership only became an issue in the EU Referendum, when people saw their vote as an opportunity to protest against the government's austerity policies and give Cameron a bloody nose by voting against him. UKIP then spuriously linked EU membership to the fear of mass immigration of Muslims, refugees and other brown people™. Vote Leave fooled people into thinking that a mythical £350 million a week could go to the NHS instead. Since the electorate barely understood what EU membership means in the first place, they thus voted against.

Many people --not least Johnson and Gove-- were then surprised to find out the next day that Leave had actually won. The electorate in turn were surprised to find that their protest vote had actually meant something, that the £350 million promise was, in fact, not a promise at all and that the UK was, in fact, still in the EU, but that it was Cameron who was leaving, and some were surprised to see that those brown people™ living down the road were still here. Yes, they really thought that it was that simple: the UK withdraws from the EU the next day, and by the end of the week immigrants will have packed their bags and gone home, and life carries on --possibly a bit better, because now there's no queues at the doctors and no foreign people in their street, and possibly lots of Union Jack bunting everywhere.

Their surprise kept growing when instead, by the end of that week the Tories had a little meltdown trying to find another PM who was not barking mad or just plain ****, the Pound dropped like a brick and it turned out that there was no actual plan for leaving. Or indeed for where the UK would go once it had. Because it turns out that "leaving" is in fact a complicated process tearing a significant hole in the framework of law and economic trade that needs to be replaced, and that all the problems that had been blamed on the EU for 40+ years were in fact not magically solved by leaving after all, and would require real plans and solutions, by a UK government which had just excused itself for a moment to sort out its own mental breakdown (and judging by the snap election still is). And they will be even more surprised in 2019, because once the UK is out, they will finally start to grasp what EU membership actually means.

The EU referendum was just a proxy war for infighting in the Tory party. The group that --arbitrarily(!)-- clustered on the Eurosceptic side won by a whisker and is now consolidating that win leveraging the notion of "democracy" and "the will of the people". Theresa May cleverly waited on the side lines to see who would win and is now siding with the victors to ride the Brexit momentum to the top of her career. Brexit now needs to happen, come what may, to keep the party united.
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Old 20th May 2017, 12:15   #7740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
UKIP then spuriously linked EU membership to the fear of mass immigration of Muslims, refugees and other brown people™.
Yet the Tories are the ones that have the laughable goal of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands (including students) in the manifesto for the upcoming election.
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