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Old 25th Feb 2016, 11:53   #81
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One of the odd things here is that people talk of the EU as if it has power in itself. Actually the central bodies (the commission, the parliament) are pretty weak. Most of the real power is vested with the council of ministers, e.g. the national governments.

Not that I am defending the EU bodies, the parliament is a ludicrous self-important, wasteful joke. The European electorate treat it with the dignity it deserves by using it an an occasion to kick their own national leaders by electing various nationalists, communists, greens and other flavour of the day protest parties.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 12:32   #82
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Who is actually in charge of the U.K., that is my question? Cameron has no control over it. Can't do anything except going through the EU.
No one can tell me with the influx of migrants coming of which we will not be able to police or control is going to do us any good in the long run.

We have not one political party here with a set of balls. Labour and toris area as bad as one another.

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Old 25th Feb 2016, 12:51   #83
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Originally Posted by Kovoet View Post
Who is actually in charge of the U.K., that is my question? Cameron has no control over it. Can't do anything except going through the EU.
The Council of Ministers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counci...European_Union) has effective control and that is where the individual national governments will negociate and vote on anything that is to be done by the EU.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 15:01   #84
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Not sure where not paying their share came in.
Well, there was the initial rebate for agricultural reasons Edit, the same as the one below
Than Thatcher "wanted her money back" (this is the agricultural rebate, at the time 80 of the EU spendings were for agriculture, now ~40%
Now Cameron makes a "deal" where the UK pays less. (Hasn't he done that before?)

I only have figures for 2014, sorry.

The Dutch payd ~4,7B€ ~270€ per person
The Germans payd~15,5B€ ~190€ per person.
The UK payd ~4,9BE ~80€ per person

In GDP: NL 0,71% D 0,52% UK 0,23%

For some reason though, the dutch don't get to have three times the say in Europe than you guys do, but they pay 3x as much (per person)

this was 2014, the "Deal" has gotten sweeter since, hasn't it.

*Figures from the "Bundeszentrale für politische bildung" http://www.bpb.de/
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Last edited by Xir; 25th Feb 2016 at 15:07.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 15:09   #85
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My god it is effin complicated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 15:29   #86
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The obvious question there Xir is, given that this is an issue of paying taxes and no-one is really obligated to pay more than legally required, why would the UK want to pay more towards the EU? Surely that is more an issue for NL regarding their own EU contributions than for the UK?
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 17:12   #87
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IDK how accurate the figures are and they're only for 2013 but going on these charts published by the Telegraph we end up 4th highest once contributions and receipts are taken into account, the Netherlands are 6th.

EDIT: A more recent and probably accurate chart has the UK in 3rd and the Netherlands in 4th for 2014.

Last edited by Corky42; 25th Feb 2016 at 17:18.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 17:22   #88
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
IDK how accurate the figures are and they're only for 2013 but going on these charts published by the Telegraph we end up 4th highest once contributions and receipts are taken into account, the Netherlands are 6th.

EDIT: A more recent and probably accurate chart has the UK in 3rd and the Netherlands in 4th for 2014.
Are you looking at total expenditure for those values?
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:34   #89
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I was looking at how much we pay in and how much we get back, there's a name for that isn't there, I've always struggled remembering what ones net and what ones gross.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:45   #90
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I was looking at how much we pay in and how much we get back, there's a name for that isn't there, I've always struggled remembering what ones net and what ones gross.
Do the positions change when you change to per capita values?
Just curious.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 19:04   #91
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I don't think either of the charts has data for that.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 19:26   #92
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It can show the data as percentage of gross national income. In that case the UK is in second place from the bottom.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 22:27   #93
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Originally Posted by DXR_13KE View Post
It can show the data as percentage of gross national income. In that case the UK is in second place from the bottom.
That's gross contributions. You need to find net contribution, but I can't find figures from 2014 on .
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Old 26th Feb 2016, 07:03   #94
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Originally Posted by DXR_13KE View Post
Do the positions change when you change to per capita values?
Just curious.
Well lets look at that Link Corky sent us (telegraph article 2013) these charts
It states:
Quote:
However, on a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out.
In that same graph, the NL was 5th Place with €4.29bn.

UK ~64 million residents, NL ~17 million residents, you do the math

Still wouldn't be right though, I'd look at % spent of national GDP. (doesnt look better though)


But really, this plucking at figures and bickering about who-suffers-most that we do on a small scale here is what is hampering the EU, only they do it on a large scale.
For me, the EU-discussion should be about the grand scale of things, where are we, where do we want to go.
Leave the bickering to the bean-counters.


My initial point was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir View Post
The British boys want a say larger than their share, while paying less than their share, and using that say to brake the entire process of forming a EU.
We agree you have a rebate (never mind how high), but at the same time there's no rebate in influence.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 17:35   #95
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I love the logic: somehow being outside of it is supposed to give the UK more power and influence over its relationship with the EU, than being part of it. Yeah, sure.

Wake up and smell it: the UK is not the Empire anymore. It's not even the most powerful economy in the Commonwealth anymore. It depends economically on being part of the EEC more than the EEC depends on the UK (those Mercedes and BMWs are going to India and China, not the UK). And the US? If Trump attains power, he will not give a rat's ass about the UK.

The UK will spend the next decade renegotiating trade agreements with the EU, with the US, and adjusting all its national legislation and regulation at a time when the UK is in full austerity, the global economy is decidedly shaky and tip-toeing through a minefield of recession towards a fragile, hopeful recovery and the US may be facing the next decade with a madman at the helm.

The timing of this is so utterly catastrophic I have no words for it. Leave the EU? The UK simply can't afford it --especially not now. The UK will be so screwed even Ireland will be laughing at it.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 18:19   #96
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If there is any upside to this mess it's the fact it'll end or ruin a few political careers... Particularly in the blue corner...
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 19:28   #97
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Wake up and smell it: the UK is not the Empire anymore. It's not even the most powerful economy in the Commonwealth anymore. It depends economically on being part of the EEC more than the EEC depends on the UK (those Mercedes and BMWs are going to India and China, not the UK). And the US? If Trump attains power, he will not give a rat's ass about the UK.
Sorry to pull you up on this but some of that isn't correct, yes the UK isn't the most powerful economy in the Commonwealth but we aren't discussing the Commonwealth, this is about the EU.
Among the EEC we are apparently the 3rd strongest economy and worldwide we're 5th (not researched that myself), those Mercedes and BMWs are mainly going to France, followed by the USA and then the UK.

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The UK will spend the next decade renegotiating trade agreements with the EU, with the US, and adjusting all its national legislation and regulation at a time when the UK is in full austerity, the global economy is decidedly shaky and tip-toeing through a minefield of recession towards a fragile, hopeful recovery and the US may be facing the next decade with a madman at the helm.
Yea well don't blame me. I wasn't the idiot that decided an in/out referendum would be a good idea, it makes me laugh though when i hear Mr Cameron basically say what you just said when he was the one that proposed this in the first place.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 19:31   #98
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
I love the logic: somehow being outside of it is supposed to give the UK more power and influence over its relationship with the EU, than being part of it. Yeah, sure.

Wake up and smell it: the UK is not the Empire anymore. It's not even the most powerful economy in the Commonwealth anymore. It depends economically on being part of the EEC more than the EEC depends on the UK (those Mercedes and BMWs are going to India and China, not the UK). And the US? If Trump attains power, he will not give a rat's ass about the UK.

The UK will spend the next decade renegotiating trade agreements with the EU, with the US, and adjusting all its national legislation and regulation at a time when the UK is in full austerity, the global economy is decidedly shaky and tip-toeing through a minefield of recession towards a fragile, hopeful recovery and the US may be facing the next decade with a madman at the helm.

The timing of this is so utterly catastrophic I have no words for it. Leave the EU? The UK simply can't afford it --especially not now. The UK will be so screwed even Ireland will be laughing at it.
You're right with your analysis. However, not anything is about the numbers.

Lot's of people including me simply can't stand the way the EU is set up and operating. Either make it the United States of Europe or dissolve it and go back to the ETC.
The current state of the EU is a total disaster displayed by the current discussion about refugees, the still ongoing EURO-crisis, the intransparent negotiation of the TPP, etc, etc.

For most people in western-europe nothing would really change if the EU was converted back to the ETC tomorrow.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 20:36   #99
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I would agree with you that a return to a ETC would be (largely) desirable, but that is better achieved within the EU than outside of it.

Meanwhile what worries me most is that ordinary voters don't understand the issue at all. On Radio 4 (Any Answers) a woman was bristling with rage that the EU imposed a law on the UK that oven gloves had to pass a test to resist temperatures of up to 200°C. What a ludicrous rule! They are dictating what oven gloves we can sell in this country! Not realising that in fact this rule protects her from unwittingly buying oven gloves that will melt themselves to her skin as soon as she takes her roast out of the oven.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 20:43   #100
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