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Old 28th Jan 2017, 23:36   #2181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackSwordsMan View Post
Just when NAFTA has successfully managed to create a Mexican middle-class and to encourage Mexicans to stay in Mexico, Trump arrive and want to dismantle an agreement that will be more effective on the long run than his stupid wall.
Well that's nice., all at the expense of the American and Canadian middle classes becoming smaller. I don't think they will agree NAFTA was a good deal for them. The families I know certainly didn't.

The mexican middle class don't seem to bothered about the amount poor mexicans that are leaving for america do they. They want the foreign compainies and jobs but dont want to cater for their own lower class using their new found source a taxation.
Having a hard border and re-negotiated NAFTA would mean Mexico will have to take some responsibility for it's own, Which they have a duty to do.

Add to the cartel problems and corruption in the mexican government, They are certainly going to have their work cut out for them.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 00:03   #2182
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For once, I'm pleased by Trudeau's reply.

"To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength."
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 02:14   #2183
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Originally Posted by TheBlackSwordsMan
Trump says US will prioritize Christian refugees.
Should have been done years ago, they're a persecuted minority and have been killed in droves for some time now, this gives them preferred status over other refugees.

This may not have much of an effect thou seeing that most of them refuse to leave in the first place, also, if they were to leave en mass civilization would leave with them, and perhaps that's what IS wants.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 07:56   #2184
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1. He was elected to protect the country from Islamic terrorists, not random assorted Muslims.
Was he, i thought he was elected on banning Muslims and "extreme" vetting.

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2. A leader is supposed to lead with wisdom and compassion, not pander to the fickle emotions of an uninformed baying mob.
Maybe in an ideal world they are but (afaik) there's nothing saying how a leader should behave or act, that's the thing with democracy if people want a leader like Trump they're free to elect one.

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3. The buck stops with him. So does the blame.
True but if past behavior is anything to go by he'll resort to his normal (for him) coping mechanisms, although there's not a DSM category for it some people more knowledgeable on the subject than me say Trump is a malignant narcissist...
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Malignant Narcissists will go to great lengths to achieve their aim. They can be intelligent, high functioning (hold an important job for example) soft-spoken, charming, tearful/seemingly emotional, gracious, well mannered, kind and have the ability to form relationships. They may lie, falsely accuse, dramatize, smear, cheat, steal, manipulate, accuse, blame or twist to get what they want and feel justified in doing so. Because they are entitled, egocentric and desperate, they do not experience it as wrong. They are determined to gratify their wishes and furious if thwarted. Their desire can be so consuming that there is little comprehension of, respect for or ability to empathize with the other. They lack guilt or remorse and tend to feel or pronounce that it is they who have been mistreated.
From what we've heard and seen of Trump that description seems to fit like a glove.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 08:30   #2185
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Yep!

From what we've heard and seen of Trump that description seems to fit like a glove.[/QUOTE]
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 08:38   #2186
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They may lie, falsely accuse, dramatize, smear, cheat, steal, manipulate, accuse, blame or twist to get what they want and feel justified in doing so. Because they are entitled, egocentric and desperate, they do not experience it as wrong. They are determined to gratify their wishes and furious if thwarted. Their desire can be so consuming that there is little comprehension of, respect for or ability to empathize with the other. They lack guilt or remorse and tend to feel or pronounce that it is they who have been mistreated.
Sounds like what a psychiatrist would write about a suicide bomber...

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Old 29th Jan 2017, 09:11   #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
He campaigned hard to be elected to that position, and accepted the position, so he is fully accountable for his actions. He vied for power, he got the power, so he has the responsibility that comes with.

"I was only following orders [from the electorate]" didn't wash at Nuremberg, it doesn't wash now.
He is accountable for his actions and so are the people that put him there.

He is not following orders. He came up with these screwy ideas and the people agreed that those screwy ideas were a good idea and put him in a position to carry them out. They are in cahoots.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 10:35   #2188
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So when will Hillary be locked up?
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 10:37   #2189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynecider View Post
Well that's nice., all at the expense of the American and Canadian middle classes becoming smaller.
If your higher classes get even higher, your middle classes suffer. Dont blame the the outsiders for the income distribution in USA and Canada.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 10:40   #2190
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 10:41   #2191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynecider View Post
Well that's nice., all at the expense of the American and Canadian middle classes becoming smaller. I don't think they will agree NAFTA was a good deal for them. The families I know certainly didn't.
Problem is - that world is long gone. Those jobs are simply never coming back, not just because Trump says so.

Look at Foxconn - they said they will build a factory in US, but with a catch. They want pretty much zero rated energy costs (by a deal from the government) and very, very cheap land to build the factory on. So pretty much US government will subsidize the difference between a $2 Chinese worker and $10 US worker. So the american middle class will subsidize the american blue collar workers. Good job Trump, awesome idea.

Secondly, the "20% import tax", or the 35% one - that will be paid by the US people buying Mexican goods. And you can bet Mexico will retaliate with same weapons, thus Trump will cause lot of American small and middle sized companies to go bankrupt, because they will lose their customer base. Good job Trump, awesome idea.

Then there is the torture thing. All US will get by this will be endangering of their own soldiers and people. If US will torture people to get information, what will stop the enemy in a possible future conflict from doing so too ?

And finally the travel ban - the guy works for you for 10 years in Iraq, risks his life for you, and you now want to deport him back ? Good job, in future no one will try to help you in foreign countries, that is for sure.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 11:01   #2192
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Indeed. It's about automation and about the developing world catching up to industrialisation and offering the same blue-collar labour (and increasingly, white collar services) at the same price now that Americans were paid fifty years ago. You can't compete with that unless you are prepared to experience a significant drop in income and lifestyle. Or unless consumers are prepared to pay a lot more for their gadgets and clothes and stuff. Either way, whether at the labour end or the consumption end of the equation, standards of living are going to take a big hit.

Western countries are having to reinvent their economies: they have to become the designers and developers of the stuff that is mass-produced in the developing world. They have to become the Apple to the Foxconn side of the equation.

But that requires, amongst others, a serious revamp of the educational system and reorientation of the economy which frankly I don't see the US (or UK) manage any time soon, because these countries are fundamentally not so much governed but run by market forces, and markets will simply move somewhere cheaper. It is the more socialist governments that tend to invest in the country.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 11:18   #2193
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Originally Posted by Tynecider View Post
Well that's nice., all at the expense of the American and Canadian middle classes becoming smaller. I don't think they will agree NAFTA was a good deal for them. The families I know certainly didn't.
I won't repeat what's already been said so I'll just post a chart that i think highlights the problem all to clearly.

Sauce.

Being told by the so called elite that your problems have nothing to do with them is nothing new.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 11:27   #2194
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Naah, I think he'd rather just believe the narrative that it's all them low-skilled, low-wage foreigners' fault, spread by tabloids which are owned by multi-millionaires.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 11:54   #2195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin View Post
Problem is - that world is long gone. Those jobs are simply never coming back, not just because Trump says so.
People beleived those jobs would never have left at all, until corporate globalisation came along.
From what I have seen in last few years, And how completely wrong experts have been getting it, I would not bank on "never coming back", Maybe not in the form they used to be. Change is diffinately coming for globalisation, and it will have to adapt to that change.

Quote:
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Being told by the so called elite that your problems have nothing to do with them is nothing new.
The 1% have used globalisation and freedom of movement (coporations are legal fictions like the rest of us) to move their money and production around the world, Taking advantage of natural resources along thw way. Yet people still feverishly beleive this is a good thing, For example: by opposing and suppressing people who support removing complete freedom of movement.
Globalisation can only function if freedom of movemenmt of goods, services and people exist, period.

So people who support the tenets of globisation and all it's establishment are not in a position to criticize it, even go as far a questioning it.
By opposing policies that make it hard for parasitical Globalisation to exist, You are directly helping the 1% become further entrenched.

The wool will eventually fall from the eyes of it's unwitting supporters, It's just taking a bit of time, unfortunately.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 13:05   #2196
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What you describe isn't a problem of globalisation and freedom of movement, it's a problem of allowing people with lots of money to play one group against another for their own gain.

The principal of freedom of movement isn't a bad thing as it allows people without work, money, or a way to improve their lot in life to move to someplace where they can, freedom of movement is akin to the freedom to move any other resource from one place to another, where it does cause problems though is when people are allowed to exploit the freedom to move resources from one place to another for their own gains.

So no the wool won't eventually fall from the eyes of the unwitting supports because (IMO) you've failed to identify what the actual problem with the freedom of movement is, if Mexico started flooding the American market with cheap corn, so much so that American corn farms started going out of business would you blame the corn?

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Old 29th Jan 2017, 13:11   #2197
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People beleived those jobs would never have left at all, until corporate globalisation came along.
Automatisation and information technology is responsible for those job losses. Machines that can do the same job that people did, faster and better. The ability to send a task halfway around the world by internet and have it back on your desk, done, by the next morning.

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From what I have seen in last few years, And how completely wrong experts have been getting it, I would not bank on "never coming back", Maybe not in the form they used to be. Change is diffinately coming for globalisation, and it will have to adapt to that change.
If it does, it won't involve the working and middle classes benefiting from it. That's not how big business works (I know a guy who makes a goodly half-million a year managing a budget of tens of millions. It is interesting to observe how his mind works. It be like: "Problem? --> What's the solution?". He doesn't agonise about why things happened or what it means. He doesn't dwell on the social fairness or unfairness of it. It's just an obstacle to overcome; an opportunity to capitalise on. Business caries on carrying on).

This anti-globalisation trend? It's just an obstacle to get around, and big corporations employ at very good pay very bright people who are very good at getting around obstacles and even capitalising on them.

Moreover, you benefit from this globalisation also. It's how you got your affordable mobile phone, your cheap clothes, your cheap food, your cheap services, when and where you want them. You could have decent working class jobs at decent pay, right there in Newcastle, except you'd have to accept a serious rise in cost of living and a corresponding drop in standards of living.

I remember a time when my parents wouldn't have been able to afford an iPhone, let alone a teenager like me. I see people, even poor people, own stuff that my parents could only dream of. Globalisation did that --but at a big cost. So far those costs were borne by mostly dark people halfway around the world, whether in the form of exploitative labour practices, environmental pollution or asset stripping of their natural resources, but it was happening to them, so it was not a problem. But now these costs are spreading, like an oil slick on water, into the Western developed world, into the Western working and middle classes, and all of a sudden globalisation is a problem.

It was always a problem. It just wasn't our problem yet. People just keep upgrading their iPhones every 18 months, their cars every three years, buying their cheap GAP clothes, gorging themselves on cheap food until the obesity crisis, watching their Sky TV. People never wonder where all that stuff came from; where all the waste goes. Who had to slave in factories or on farms for a pittance to make all this possible, like we don't wonder about the third-world immigrants who clean the London five-star hotel rooms and City banking offices at night. Who drive us home in Uber minicabs after a drunken Friday night out on the town. Who mans the all-night off-licenses and convenience stores.

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Originally Posted by Tynecider View Post
The 1% have used globalisation and freedom of movement (coporations are legal fictions like the rest of us) to move their money and production around the world, Taking advantage of natural resources along thw way. Yet people still feverishly beleive this is a good thing, For example: by opposing and suppressing people who support removing complete freedom of movement. Globalisation can only function if freedom of movemenmt of goods, services and people exist, period.
And so can your iPhone, your cheap clothes, food and services. Without that freedom of movement of goods, services and people, you'd be paying a lot more.

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So people who support the tenets of globisation and all it's establishment are not in a position to criticize it, even go as far a questioning it. By opposing policies that make it hard for parasitical Globalisation to exist, You are directly helping the 1% become further entrenched.
Dude, YOU are supporting it, as a consumer. You are supporting it with Brexit.

Global corporations are more powerful than countries. If one country levies reasonable taxes, enforces standards of practice, employee rights and/or consumer protection, the corporation simply moves its operations to another country. The only way that can be stopped is if countries bind together into trading blocs --like the EU for instance: the biggest economic bloc in the world, bigger than the US, bigger than China and India combined. This is why the EU can force higher taxes from Google and Apple. This is why it can oppose Microsoft's monopolistic practices.



Rupert Murdoch, you will recall, was a great supporter of Brexit. He now is about to add Sky to his global empire --at a knock-down price since the Pound dropped.

This is also why every country with some sense is binding together in a trading bloc. Whether it is ASEAN in the Pacific (founder member: Singapore), or the AFTZ in Africa, or MERCOSUR in South America. It is the only way to stand up to global corporations.

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The wool will eventually fall from the eyes of it's unwitting supporters, It's just taking a bit of time, unfortunately.
Mote in your own eye, mate.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 14:58   #2198
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Freedom of movement is a wonderful thing for the middle class.

Here where i live there are companies that come from around the EU to fill a room of engineers at the same price of one engineer where they are from. It is good because that brings jobs and money, it is bad because they pay the minimum they can. I have heard of IT and electronics engineers working for 600€/month. They work for a few months and then GTFO and travel to other countries in the EU where they earn much much more.
If were were not in the euro zone and we did not have freedom of movement we would be stuffed. Thankfully i can go work anywhere in the EU, this allows e to go to places where there is a lack of people with my skill and earn more. I then spend money on taxes, housing and food where i'm working. Then you say something like: -but you are sending some of that money back home.
Yes. But think about this, if i send 50% of my earnings back home, this means that 50% stays there. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing (nothing representing an unfilled job opening).

If you think that these jobs should be only for locals then... imagine your day to day life, now take away every single foreigner. Is there enough people and knowledge to replace them? Would YOU do their work for the pay they get? I'm not talking about doctors and stuff, i'm talking about cleaning hotel rooms, cleaning toilets, sweeping the streets, washing plates, sewer stuff, you know... the dirty and stinky stuff. Would you do it?
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 15:19   #2199
walle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE View Post
If you think that these jobs should be only for locals then... imagine your day to day life, now take away every single foreigner. Is there enough people and knowledge to replace them? Would YOU do their work for the pay they get? I'm not talking about doctors and stuff, i'm talking about cleaning hotel rooms, cleaning toilets, sweeping the streets, washing plates, sewer stuff, you know... the dirty and stinky stuff. Would you do it?
We have done just fine in the past leading up to present day and if taking those jobs is the difference between you eating or starving you will take those jobs. Of course, you may feel to 'good' for such menial labor.

On the other hand, if handouts from government leaves you with more money in your pocket at the end of the month than it would if you worked any of those jobs you would not take those jobs, you would get lazy, complacent and lose the drive of wanting to improve your life and better yourself because there would be no incentive for you to do so. It's not like you are starving or forced to work those jobs which would then help to drive you forward with a desire to get away from them as soon as possible. It also creates a culture of entitlement, by the way.

You can just sit at home and watch TV.

Edit.
We didn't build our respective civilizations and cultures with shitty work ethics and that of being lazy and unproductive, it's most certainly not what's gonna preserve them, if ever possible with current direction of travel to begin with. It doesn't look too promising.
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Last edited by walle; 29th Jan 2017 at 15:48.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 15:40   #2200
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DONALD Trump has signed an executive order giving the US security services 30 days to devise a new strategy for defeating ISIS, the White House said today.

What a day for us all to see in!

FULL MIGHT OF THE US INDUSTRAL MILITARY COMPLEX

Let the fireworks beginning in t minus 30 days.



Its going to be very successful.


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