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Old 11th Apr 2017, 19:29   #3081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
question is if Trump does attack North Korea whose side will Putin take?
Putin would stay far away, just like the UK, EU, Japan, Australia and so on.

Seoul is less than 50 miles from the border to North Korea and there are approx 25 million civilians in the Seoul area for North Korea to bomb in retaliation, which is why so far no one has been dumb enough to attack North Korea.
Plus North Korea is such an apocalyptic hell hole very few would stay there if the regime collapsed, neither China nor South Korea want to pay for millions of North Korean refugees.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:12   #3082
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Trump administration screw up #67564:

Sean Spicer calling concentration camps "holocaust centers" while talking about Assad, Hitler and chemical weapons.

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/statu...67211564273664
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:30   #3083
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NK actually has something more dangerous than nukes currently - they have the 170mm artillery piece with the RAP round - something like 10,000 of them , all dug in and camouflaged in the DMZ. Range with a RAP round is about 40 miles (its 30 miles to greater soul) , so at 1 round a minute that's over 1/2 million shells in an hour and even if 1 per gun is chemical agents.....

Bulk of DPRK forces are located in or near the DMZ
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:35   #3084
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Indeed, doesn't even matter what they use.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 07:29   #3085
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Not knowing anything about this sort of thing i guess the American anti-missile system they installed a few months back wouldn't stop artillery shells?

Also if something did kick off would NK even let their people become refugees, i can envisage a situation where they'd shoot people trying to cross the border into China, along with the 150k Chines troops preventing them from entering.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 07:31   #3086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfield View Post
Trump administration screw up #67564:

Sean Spicer calling concentration camps "holocaust centers" while talking about Assad, Hitler and chemical weapons.

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/statu...67211564273664
I hear that they had food outlets and souvenir shops.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 13:06   #3087
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"Hitler didn't use chemical weapons..."

"Holocaust centres..."

I never thought I'd say this of the US admin but this has to be trolling. Surely nobody in Spicer's position can be that stupid.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 13:36   #3088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Not knowing anything about this sort of thing i guess the American anti-missile system they installed a few months back wouldn't stop artillery shells?

Also if something did kick off would NK even let their people become refugees, i can envisage a situation where they'd shoot people trying to cross the border into China, along with the 150k Chines troops preventing them from entering.
Anti-missile systems aren't really designed to deal with artillery, plus regardless of the type, quantity and quality of any defensive system the main problem is that the short distance would result in a nearly non existent warning time.

If North Korea actually attacks someone retaliation from South Korea and America is 100% guaranteed, Pyongyang (and with it the NK regime) would be a smoking pile of rubble within hours.
The problem is that until then Kim Jong-un as the head of one of the worlds largest armies would easily have the opportunity to go down in the history books as a monster who killed millions as the world would see it, or as the greatest martyr who ever martyred (if he believes his own propaganda).

NK would certainly try to stop people from leaving, but the general expectation is that that would cease to apply very quickly as loyalty based on starvation and fear is unlikely to last long if the regime fell.
China wouldn't really be able stop them from coming, what would they do? Shoot unarmed civilians?

All of the above is part of the reasons why so far no one has actually taken any real action against the NK regime and why the NK regime gets off on posturing rather than shooting first.
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Last edited by Anfield; 12th Apr 2017 at 16:19.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 14:20   #3089
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In 1991 the Iraq army was the largest standing army in the middle east , about 1 millionmen and some 5000 tanks , 3000 artillery and some 700 aircraft. The formations were built and trained along soviet 1980`s designs as were the C3 systems.

24 feb 1991 the coalition entered Iraq and Kuwait , and 100 hours later the Iraq army had been shattered with over 3700 tanks destroyed and up to 100,000 Iraqi troops KIA.

The level of overwhelming firepower brought to the table was such that an Iraqi veteran of the Iran/Iraq war commented that at the Battle of Khafji , his brigade has sustained more punishment in 30 minutes than in the entire 8 year iran/Iraq war.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 15:47   #3090
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Quote:
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24 feb 1991 the coalition entered Iraq and Kuwait , and 100 hours later the Iraq army had been shattered with over 3700 tanks destroyed and up to 100,000 Iraqi troops KIA.
I'm not doubting that the NK regime would ultimately lose and quickly at that in the case of an armed conflict, just pointing out that it could be a very bad idea to give them an excuse to go out with a bang as that bang could be very bad.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 16:08   #3091
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Not knowing anything about this sort of thing i guess the American anti-missile system they installed a few months back wouldn't stop artillery shells?

Also if something did kick off would NK even let their people become refugees, i can envisage a situation where they'd shoot people trying to cross the border into China, along with the 150k Chines troops preventing them from entering.
The current state of the US missile defense systems isn't even capable of stopping ICBMs 50% of the time. The system is simply not working as advertised and they went ahead and installed it anyways to justify the costs that went into the development.
Artillery shells are not missiles to begin with, they have no rocket propelling it so there's no heatsource the missile defense system could detect.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 16:14   #3092
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At least its better than the last ABM system - that used nukes to stop swarms of mirvs
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 17:14   #3093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
In 1991 the Iraq army was the largest standing army in the middle east , about 1 millionmen and some 5000 tanks , 3000 artillery and some 700 aircraft. The formations were built and trained along soviet 1980`s designs as were the C3 systems.

24 feb 1991 the coalition entered Iraq and Kuwait , and 100 hours later the Iraq army had been shattered with over 3700 tanks destroyed and up to 100,000 Iraqi troops KIA.

The level of overwhelming firepower brought to the table was such that an Iraqi veteran of the Iran/Iraq war commented that at the Battle of Khafji , his brigade has sustained more punishment in 30 minutes than in the entire 8 year iran/Iraq war.
Actually I think Iran had a bigger army. But that doesn't matter, as a relatively small band of Taliban Jihadi fighters demonstrated when they kicked the Allied forces all over Afghanistan with their sandaled feet for the last decade.

Because you see, conventional fire power doesn't mean jack when the enemy goes off script and decides to fight a dirty guerilla war. And the NK army strikes me as just the sort of army that could do that.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 17:23   #3094
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NK army would use swarm tactics based upon the large numbers as there's would be a campaign of conquest rather than attrition . It worked for china during the war when they came to the aid of the north. Add chemical agents into the mix it would get nasty but, the entire army is using 40 year old tech, so numbers is all they have.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 17:35   #3095
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China wouldn't really be able stop them from coming, what would they do? Shoot unarmed civilians?
It wouldn't be the first time would it, not that i know for sure just going on their bad rep when it comes to human rights.

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The current state of the US missile defense systems isn't even capable of stopping ICBMs 50% of the time. The system is simply not working as advertised and they went ahead and installed it anyways to justify the costs that went into the development.
Artillery shells are not missiles to begin with, they have no rocket propelling it so there's no heatsource the missile defense system could detect.
IDK it was that useless, i also assumed it worked of radar because i thought ICBM's use rocket motors on the way up buy free-fall on the way down, but like i said i know nothing of missile defense systems.

Wouldn't South Korea's scarper to bomb shelters if NK decided to go postal.

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Old 12th Apr 2017, 17:39   #3096
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And the NK army strikes me as just the sort of army that could do that.
Doubtful if the army would keep going with any tactic once the regime collapses.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 18:23   #3097
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Corky - ABM works on 3 levels ; you have boost phase interceptors (RIM-161) ship mounted , they are designed to (if possible) overtake the icbm before it seperates . you also have THAAD designed for irbms (and maybe icbm mirvs) on desent phase. the US GMD will be for the mid course out in space.

So yes they boost , then cruise then free fall.

Now Israel actually has a system, which can shoot down mortars and shells - its called `Iron Dome` , likewise the USA CIWS can also do similar, but again would be hard worked in a swarm attack
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 19:00   #3098
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IDK it was that useless, i also assumed it worked of radar because i thought ICBM's use rocket motors on the way up buy free-fall on the way down, but like i said i know nothing of missile defense systems.

Wouldn't South Korea's scarper to bomb shelters if NK decided to go postal.
Then people talk about anti-missile systems, they usually have in mind anti-ballistic missiles (Any SAM can technically act as anti-ballistic missile). Those are designed to engage targets in high altitude and at range (ideally you'd want to shoot down ICBM during its liftoff). Not to mention that the missiles themselves are big, expensive and relatively few. And they do use radar, heat seekers are only useful at short ranges - <10km.
For rockets/artillery/mortars you want CRAM, Mantis, IronDome, etc. Then the question becomes "Are they deployed densely enough and do they have enough ammo till you organize counter-battery fire".
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 20:46   #3099
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Doubtful if the army would keep going with any tactic once the regime collapses.
Depends how fanatic they are. Taliban insurgents don't need a regime. They have their fundamentalist faith.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 20:54   #3100
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Depends how fanatic they are. Taliban insurgents don't need a regime. They have their fundamentalist faith.
Some would say that IS a regime....
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