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"Apple 'failing to protect Chinese factory workers'"

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Mr_Mistoffelees, 18 Dec 2014.

  1. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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  2. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    The BBC are normally pretty good with bias, but Panorama seems to be the exception to the rule these days.

    China, and indeed the entire of SE Asia, are utterly rife with terrible working practices, dodgy raw material procurement and health/safety. Apple go above and beyond every other company who use China as a fabricator by trying to force their suppliers and manufacturers to adhere to strict conditions aimed at being responsible for their workforce and the environment.

    However, it's ridiculous that Apple then get blamed for shortfalls. Is it Apple putting workers in to 12 bed rooms? No, it's Foxconn or Pegatron or whoever. Is it Apple directly employing people to mine tin in a massively environmentally damaging way? Nope, it's somebody three or four steps removed who sells through middlemen, with the product eventually reaching Apple's manufacturers. At the heart of it, the fault lies with Foxconn and the like who simply want to make as much profit as possible, so will wiggle out of any obligations put on them by Apple.

    Why not look at Dell? HP? Sony? Hell, any electronics manufacturer? They'll be doing less than Apple by far. However, because Apple have the name it's good for pagehits and television viewers to tar them with this rubbish. The only solution for Apple is to directly take over running all their production lines and raw material lines themselves, but that simply isn't going to happen.

    Apple seem to be one of the few companies actually trying to change things. They should be applauded and encouraged, not lampooned by somebody who just wants a story.
     
    Guinevere likes this.
  3. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Applauded? :jawdrop: If apple wanted to change this they could within about 12 to 18months. Buy new production equipment, hire a new contract manufacturer. Its really not that hard.

    Given the crazy mark-up apple are renowned for and the fact that they are the richest company in the world. I wonder how much of a dent in their profits moving device manufacturing to a more worker friendly country or facility would actually make. (whilst retaining the same price point for devices)

    I'm sure every device creator is guilty of hiring sweat shop labour (and clothes companies and many other industries) Apple are in prime position to actually change some of this. Since they haven't really innovated a whole lot after Jobs died, perhaps a holier than thou and shaming of all other electronic device creators would be the next best marketing campaign.
     
    Last edited: 18 Dec 2014
  4. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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    That Apple are not the only company, buying from Chinese firms using very poor working practices, does not somehow make them blameless. Apple can and should, do much better, so should the rest.
     
  5. Harlequin

    Harlequin Modder

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    its down to money - you want work ethics and made in America? then the iPhone 6 would be way over £1000 - thanks to the unions. which would make them unaffordable.
     
  6. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    I've never been a huge fan of unions. However foxxconn is a great example of what can happen without some sort of employee representation.
     
  7. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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    In China, company bosses pay backhanders to the Communist Party, bosses and party members get rich, the working people suffer.

    To misquote George Orwell, "All people are equal but, some people are more equal than others." Rather like the capitalist West but, without the same protection for worker's rights, eroded as they are these days.
     
  8. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    Yeah? Because I'm pedantic enough to do the calculation. Based on the total number of foxconn employees, their average salary, the manufacturing costs and retail value of the iPhone - Apple could match average Foxconn employee's salary, doubling it, and still sell the iPhone at double the manufacturing cost. The iPhone only accounts for 41% of Apple's revenue.
     
  9. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    You clearly have little understanding as to what is going on here. Apple cannot just 'fix this' in a year or so - they've been trying to fix it for years, but the Chinese contractors are constantly looking for loopholes or outright ignoring instructions. They can't just move manufacturers, because very few offer what Apple need in terms of volume and expertise. Apple already pay for a lot of the production line equipment.

    Apple have moved production of some product lines to the US - but only the Mac Pro or Mac Mini (unsure which). We've also seen the problems with US suppliers recently.

    https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/

    Come on, where's Dell/HP and the like's equivalent page? Where are their publicly available audits, progress reports and data?

    "Suppliers averaged 95 percent compliance with our 60-hour workweek in 2013, a 3 percent increase from 2012."

    You're right, it isn't 100% compliance, and I'm willing to bet Panorama ditched their footage that showed any concordance with Apple's rules, and stuck with the 5% that breach it, and indeed probably filmed at the facilities that were known to breach rather than those that don't. Because it makes good television and news, and gets people like yourself who don't bother to research for themselves jumping up and down with first world rage.

    But Apple do much better than everybody else, it's just that the system in China is so flawed it's like turning a supertanker around. It takes time, a lot of money and a cultural change among the companies involved. You can't just flip a switch and suddenly expect a nation where bad employment practices are rife to suddenly pay everybody a minimum wage and stick to the European Working Time Directive. It's difficult to get people in the EU to follow the EWTD!

    That's part of it. Cost of materials would also be higher, as they'd have to be shipped in to the US or purchased at higher prices locally, and all the fringe costs that go with employment are also a lot higher in the US than China (health insurance etc etc etc). They'd also need more people employed as hours permitted would be lower. So yeah, it isn't as simple as just increasing the wage bill per head.
     
    Last edited: 19 Dec 2014
  10. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Yes, the past 10 years that I have spent either studying factory automation or working on manufacturing systems, bringing in production lines for customers as well as working in a wide array of large multinational manufacturers (including contract manufacturers) has certainly given me a distinct understanding handicap.
     
  11. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

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    And with this one line you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding on what it actually takes to manufacture modern devices. You claim to be an expert and yet think it's possible for Apple to create brand new supply and production lines of the scale and flexibility they have currently, with perfect ethical treatment in about a year. It's not just equipment and a building, it's the workforce, their accommodation, their healthcare, their training, their education, the raw materials, the transport, the shipping... you name it.

    You don't understand that working to improve worker conditions is ethically better than making everyone jobless or leaving them to be exploited by other less ethical manufactures.

    I'm with Apple on this one. They are saying more than anyone on worker standards and actively doing more than anyone to improve things. They are constantly auditing and always finding people abusing the system... and they work to fix it.

    Shame on the BBC on this one I'm afraid. They went looking for trouble, found some and used that as evidence that Apple is lying.

    Apple are always looking for trouble and also always find some, so they put the details up on their website and look to fix the problems. Where are the lies?

    Apple want to move more manufacturing back to the West and have done so. You make it sound so easy.

    If only.
     
    Last edited: 19 Dec 2014
  12. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    So why do you post nonsense if you're claiming such in depth knowledge? Address the points made, rather than trying to shut discussion down by claiming some level of expertise.
     
    Last edited: 19 Dec 2014
  13. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    18 months is a reasonable turn around on getting an automated production line designed and built.

    In a highly automated production environment the Gen 1 line will begin production. Whilst Gen 1 device is being produced the equipment for the Gen 2 line will begin design and build.

    As Gen 1 line slows down production and comes toward end of life, Gen 2 will be started up. Gen 2 builds a release day stock and continues production. More lines may be added to Gen 2 to cater for demand beyond release day. Production will stop on Gen 1 completely and the equipment on that line will be decommissioned. Then things start for Gen 3. This rolling cycle of production lines continues through each device generation.

    A machine can only produce so many devices so fast. In order to increase volume you need multiple line instances. These line instances can be sourced from multiple equipment vendors in parallel, because equipment vendors have the same problem as any manufacturing process they can only make so many lines so fast.

    Once you get beyond a single machine or production line, much of the manufacturing process can be parallelised. Multiple parrallel lines means the volume demands can be spread across multiple contract vendors and manufacturing sites if required. Instantiation of equipment is also a lot easier and faster than the initial design and build.

    Apple can interrupt this rolling production line cycle and place new equipment in any manufacturing facility anywhere in the world. Here is an example of a contract manufacturer in Wales which will build electronics. I believe Siemens build their won industrial controllers in Germany. Intel perform incredibly complex electronics manufacturing processes in Western production facilities, located in places such as America, Ireland and Israel. The required expertise to build electronic devices is not located only in China nor is it located only in Foxxconn.

    It is highly likely that much of the processes in the Chinese foxxconn facility is not highly automated and is done through unskilled manual labour. Moving a manual process like this is straight forward as the only equipment overhead would be manual assembly/processing equipment which is generally off the shelf stuff. Inserting screw A into hole B doesn't require any set of special skills at any level of manufacturing. Foxxconn probably automate only what is absolutely necessary because paying a group of workers is likely to be cheaper than building and maintaining production equipment. This lower technology overhead makes production easier to move or place with other contract manufacturers.

    Production lines, even with existing equipment can and do get moved around the world for various reasons (money)

    It is naive to think Apple can have any sort of real effect on Foxxconn. Ultimately Foxconn will just put on a show during an audit by apple. This is something which happens to one extent or another, in all manufacturing facilities during audits by customers or regulatory bodies. So Foxxconn can show workers in lovely accommodation, which is not representative of what life is like for all workers. They will have fresh well rested workers on the line before auditors are a brought into the production environment. Production supervisors will be on their best behaviour. Then back to business as usual when the auditors are gone. I have even heard tell of Chinese manufacturing sites essentially creating new companies (same assets, same people, same location) so as not to have any suicides associated with them. I can't verify this but it came from a high level engineer that would be involved in over seeing production contracts out there.

    Change can only come from worker unionisation/revolt or through government laws. Neither of which seem likely. Those set to profit in Foxxconn are likely to keep the status quo because it is more profitable to drive humans to their limits than provide humane working conditions.

    The only real power Apple has is the decision on who to contract for their manufacturing. Of course Apple will choose profitability over humanity.
     
  14. rollo

    rollo Modder

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    If the major company like Apple really wanted to change this they would move all production out of china and set a decent minimum wage with 40hour max a week. Then everyone would be up in arms about not getting a product in time.

    If you own a branded item of clothing, trainers, Shoes, tv computer parts anything chances are it was made in china or taiwan ( Still china technically) Or India the big 3 basically in cheap labour.

    The world would collapse if every major company moved out of china considering its propping up USA economy. Apple is the biggest of the tech companys or fasion companys but they all do it and to think they dont is just stupid.

    Min wage in the uk is £6.50 i think ? or close to it. Apple would need a minimum of 20000 workers to match the china output. ( probably alot more in truth) 20k x £6.50 x 40 is a big bil ( aprox £5.2million per week for 20k workers in the uk at minimum wage). or they can pay $100000 for the same thing from china.

    Logic suggests this practice will never change till people are happy buying in country sourced products. ( Can you actually buy clothes made in the uk these days? That your average person could afford to buy, I know theres a few super expensive shoe and trouser shirt brands that are uk based)
     
  15. Harlequin

    Harlequin Modder

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    Benetton , Primark , Matalan , Bon Marche - a few names associated with the Savar building collapse.


    why mention this?

    well when the 8 story factory complex collapsed killing nearly 1200 people and injuring thousands more - the average wage was $40 a month (and the wage increase to $68 a month isn't very well implemented)

    makes foxconn wages seem like heaven @ $600 a month doesn't it they earn more in 1 month than the Bangladeshi's earn in a year.....
     
  16. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    The entire first bit of that waffle is exactly that, academic waffle. Yes, Apple can buy a production line in 18 months if we talk solely in terms of the hardware needed to do so. But they can't turn round and replace their entire supply chain and bring it in house in 18 months, if ever, because it's rather a bit more complicated than an academic diatribe on how you make a production line.

    We're not talking a handful of people on a single production line here. We're talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions (Foxconn is something like 1.3m people) working across many lines, across many production facilities and many companies. Foxconn might be the big name that we know, but Apple don't just use them - Pegatron is another, just as an example.

    What you're saying is an easy 18 month job is ludicrous.

    No, China isn't the only place with the expertise, but they're the only place with the sheer numbers required to run these production lines. Britain can handle small scale electronics and manufacturing, but nothing on this size. Look at the problems Amazon have when they try to scale upwards in their distribution centres - Apple would be the same but even further magnified, because lets face it, the western population simply doesn't want to work on a production line. Apple are moving a single production line back to the USA, likely the Mac Pro because it's low volume and hence they can find enough staff to fill it. They'd never ever find 1.4m people in one place willing to churn out iPhones in anywhere but China.

    As for automation, as I linked, Apple have directly paid for robots on worklines - $10.5bn isn't exactly small change. They recently had to withdraw a bunch as they didn't have the tolerances needed.

    As for dodging audits? Sure, when you know they are coming. Apple frequently turn up unannounced and start auditing within an hour of arrival. Pretty hard to hide everything in an hour - especially those workers currently on shift who can't leave any time soon, or worker facilities in to which the auditors can just turn up without being guided round a show facility or whatever. Apple are a hard company to work for, because they have higher standards than anybody else, but equally the benefit in terms of long term valuable contracts clearly makes it worth it.

    I've done audits (in the healthcare setting mind), and surprise audits are incredibly hard to cheat when the auditors have complete access.

    Oh, and Apple has no impact on Foxconn? How about rises in workers' wages. Foxconn, because of Apple, now pay their staff well above the average. They work less hours than similar factories (no doubt where your 'experience' comes from) and live in better conditions.

    Is it perfect? No. Are Apple pushing to improve? Yes. However, the fact remains that this Panorama article picks on Apple because of their name, whilst Apple are easily the best company involved in outsourcing to China. Go do a programme on the working conditions of Dell or Lenovo.

    Exactly. Under Apple's guidance, Foxconn and the like are far far better than what else is out there.
     
  17. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Its not academic though, this is what happens. Nor is what I have said a diatribe. :confused:

    Ultimately the issue here is that you are trying to normalise the cognitive dissonance of being an ethical person that is a fan of a company which is happy to employ the services of a distinctly unethical vendor. So call what I am saying waffle and nonsense all you want, it doesn't do a lot to negate my points, but if it makes you feel better then great. :thumb:

    The accuracy of my estimates are really irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it takes 18 months or 5 years. Apple have the means to have their products built by ethical companies but ultimately they choose not to. It would be an investment with no financial return. Meanwhile they sit on mountains of money


    All 1.4 million people aren't making apple products nor are they located in one facility. That would be like 10 iphones each and then everyone goes home. Foxconn make 50% of the world electronics. Foxconn have plants world wide. How many people work building Apple devices?

    Apple are not some sort of America **** Yeah heroes trying to make the lives of poor Chinese people better. They need their stuff made cheap end of. Anything else is PR based. Getting a wage hike doesn't cost Apple whole lot but its a nice good news story. Meanwhile workers jump off the roof and fall asleep at their work stations. Workers shifts run 12 14 hours 6 days a week, child labour gets utilised etc. Make no mistake Apple understand what happens in Foxconn and the like but continue to use their services because the price is right. In the unlikely event Apple ever manage to create a reasonable work environment for the people on their lines, they are still profiting a company that will use the same unethical approach across the rest of their lines making products for customers who give less of a **** than Apple.

    To respond to your other points.

    Automation is required regardless, its more cost effective to buy a CNC machine than have people hand file the case of an IPhone. However foxconn would employ larger quantities of manual processes than would be done in the west. If production was more automated the required work force could be shrunk. This would make moving production to a higher cost region more cost effective.

    Its typical for companies that hire contract manufacturers to pay for costs like equipment. It all gets billed back, wages, extra contractors, material etc.

    Production doesn't need to happen in one place it can be split across plants and countries. It doesn't even need to be moved out of China if an ethical contractor could be found. As has been already said because other companies also employ the same production methods as Apple doesn't legitimise it. Don't feel sore because your favourite company is being targeted. They are simply more popular. Also the fact that Apple are so rich make them prime candidates to step up their game, instead they pay lip service to try and minimize the associated bad publicity that crops up evey now and then.
     
    Last edited: 21 Dec 2014
  18. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    If people in rich countries would be willing to pay the premium there would be a whole selection of ethical suppliers.
     
  19. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    No there would not, capitalism doesn't work like that.
    The idea is to produce things as cheap as possible and then sell the product for as high a price as possible, if people in rich countries payed more it would just mean higher profits.
     
  20. mucgoo

    mucgoo Minimodder

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    Fairtrade? Not something I support, I'll provide a link to criticism if interested.

    http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/
    No comment on how many of the claims are genuine but the option does exists.

    The idea is to maximise profit. You definitely don't do that by "produce(ing) things as cheap as possible and then sell the product for as high a price as possible."
    Take this graph. Porsche definitely isn't following your maxim. Instead they spend quite a bit on production in order the retain the brand image of quality which allows them to charge so much per car.
    [​IMG]
    The same could work for ethical good and indeed as I showed above such companies exist. There's just not very much demand.
     

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