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What is central Europe supposed to do in the current migrant crisis?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by faugusztin, 2 Sep 2015.

  1. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Hi,

    i want to know what are we here in central Europe (Slovakia, Czech republic, Poland, Hungary) supposed to do according to the "west" (Germany, Austria, France, UK...).

    Why am i asking that ? Because the situation and opinions from Western politicians are confusing as hell (short summary can be found for example at the guardian : http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-tempers-frayed-insults-traded-results-absent )

    1. Hungary is "evil" because it stops the migrants from proceeding further into EU, according to Schengen laws, thus "forcing" migrants to use illegal methods to reach Germany. At same time Hungary is "evil" for letting through few trains on Monday. At same time no one cares about the fact, that huge majority of these migrants came through Greece, which is according to my knowledge a Schengen area country. Why are then all those Syrians and Afghans (who certainly passed through Greece; not talking about the exodus from Kosovo, those didnt') standing in front of Budapest train station, when they are supposed to be stil lin Greece ?

    2. Hungary is "evil" because they are building a razor fence at Schengen area border, to protect the outside borders of Schengen area, as the treaty requires. Meanwhile the fence in Calais is fine.

    3. Central Europe is "evil" because of low numbers promised for refugee distribution. Yet we all know that even if the refugees are going to be distributed according to some percentage key, the first thing the migrants will do once they can move inside their "assigned country" is to get into Germany (Syrians, Afghans, Albanians) or UK (african nations). I guess then it will be "our fault" again for not stopping them. But it will be our fault too if we will try to control their movement by putting them in refugee camps. And of course there are no border patrols on internal borders of Schengen area.

    4. Meanwhile "Mama Merkel" says Syrian refugees won't be sent back to the country where they first registered in EU - yet at same time blames Hungary and Austria for letting a train full of them to pass through their countries, without valid Schengen ID or visa.

    Please, someone tell me what are the actual expectations ? Or is Hungary just a fitting scapegoat ?
    Note: i am not arguing that many views of hungarian government are weird, but in this one specific problem they follow the laws and EU rules to the letter. Also this is not about the nationality of migrants, my questions would be same if they would be people from any country - it is about the EU procedures, laws vs what are politicans from "western countries" saying.
     
  2. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    imo the whole thing can be summed up thus -

    EU Governments collectively - This is terrible, something must be done! ... *muble*by someone else*mumble*...

    EU Governments individually - eww no... we don't wan't 'em, send them somewhere else!

    And each country's population - a mix of 'why aren't we doing more?' and 'let the scum drown...' depending on political leaning/media **** stirring...


    So right now Hungary is probably getting the grief to distract form the fact the rest of the EU is doing similar levels of **** all...
     
    lp1988 likes this.
  3. Waynio

    Waynio Relaxing

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    ^Sounds spot on.

    Instead of mass migration I'd rather see a global effort for safe clean healthy migrant camps put up while the countries of origin get unfecked & recruit & train any fit & able migrants to help, when the homeland is unfecked & back on it's feet move them back home, any with ambitions higher than the local norm could then legally come to another country safely to study & better themselves & others, only way to please everyone & keep countries working good.
     
  4. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Geography hour :

    Well, technically eastern Europe is Russia alone; or if you want to be very broad, you might include Belarus and Ukraine.

    Or you say that is not in the middle of Europe ?

    [​IMG]

    "Eastern Europe" also has a negative meaning to most of the "West", so it is natural we try to distance ourself from the term "Eastern Europe". It is also pretty stupid to call Czech Republic Eastern Europe, while Austria is Western Europe, considering majority of their areas are pretty much at same longitude.

    And about the topic - i wonder what will now Germans do. A Hungarian government representative sent a request to the German embassy in Hungary for the ambassador to come to the train station and explain what the hell Germany actually meant by their words, to explain can refugees get to Germany. The primary problem is that all those hundreds/thousands in front of the train station don't want to go through the asylum procedure in Hungary, they want to do it in Germany. But that is illegal according to the Dublin treaty.

    EDIT:
    News :
    http://www.budapest.diplo.de/
    Now i wonder how long will it take for these people to orderly move to the designated refugee camps until their asylum application is processed. But somehow i doubt situation will be any different.
     
    Last edited: 3 Sep 2015
  5. Hamfunk

    Hamfunk I AM KROGAN!

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    Can someone explain to me why this has all kicked off now?

    Has something changed in the EU recently that the influx has increased or has this been going on for some time on this scale but the news are running with it now?
     
  6. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    It was going on for some time, just in smaller numbers (read hundreds per day), those either allowed themselves to be registered, or managed to evade authorities. Now the numbers are in thousands per day.

    Also the problem is that ALL of these people refuse to be registered. But without registration of their refugee status/asylum request you aren't allowed to travel freely in Schengen zone.

    So right now Hungary is in Catch-22 situation :
    1) Refugees refuse to be registered in Hungary.
    2) Refugees demand free way to Germany.
    3) Refugees have no ID or passport, so identification takes longer.
    4) Hungary can't let the refugees leave country without being registered. It is a Schengen area rule.

    That is the whole problem. A group of thousands of people who refuse to do what the EU law requires, who camp outside of the train station of the state capital. They also refuse to go into the refugee camps.

    It is pretty much the same thing as Calais - the EU country they are in isn't good enough (France, Hungary) and they want to get into a wealthier one (UK, Germany) even if it means breaking the laws.
     
  7. Archtronics

    Archtronics Minimodder

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    Its been happening for a while it just wasn't in the news.

    I'm pretty convinced the media use these kind of storys to make money somehow because every year its something different to incite fear into the general population.

    In a few months it will be largly forgotten much like Ebola, milk prices, bird flu etc.
     
  8. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    http://frontex.europa.eu/trends-and-routes/western-balkan-route/

    Here are the numbers. This year it is 100k so far ?

    Edit: Yup, a bit above 100k for Jan-July :
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911
    [​IMG]

    West Balkan route = Greece->Macedonia->Serbia->Hungary->Austria->Germany until last week. Now they are stuck in Hungary, because of their numbers and stricter controls by both Hungary and Austria - Austria effectively borders the Hungarian border now. Also Eastern Mediterranean migration is pretty much same as West Balkan route, except some of the migrants stay in Greece or other countries on road. Or aren't caught later on.
     
    Last edited: 3 Sep 2015
  9. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    I can only feel for Hungary, Italy, Spain and Greece. If I was in their position I would just stick them on what ever train I could to Germany, France, UK. Make it their problem and they'll find a solution quick enough. Politicans will always talk out both sides of their mouth, You just have to hope they do what is right by those who elected them not those false gods of the EU.
     
  10. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    The problem is that the idea is based on flawed premise - that these are primarily WAR refugees and want to be in any safe country. But that is simply not the case, they want to get to one destination - Germany.

    Let's play with the idea, that there will be some magic quota system, and refugees will be distributed according to some key. Some will be put in Germany, some in Portugal, some in Netherlands, some in Slovakia, some in Greece, some in Bulgary, some in Estonia,... Sure, the ones who will be sent to Benelux, Denmark, Germany will probably stay. But how long until all those "distributed" to Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgary, Greece, Poland, baltic countries come back to Germany ? Unless you put them in the detention camps with no way to leave, they will end up in Germany again.

    France isn't in bad shape either, yet there is the Calais problem, because they want to get to UK. Germany doesn't have natural borders like the British Isles, Germany doesn't even have border controls anymore.

    As Orban said it bluntly, this problem is a German problem. Because they will all end up in Germany one way or another.

    EDIT: Just a minor proof for that - of 3650 refugees who entered Austria on Monday via train from Budapest when the authorities gave up. Of those, around 3500 went to Germany afterwards. So, Austria is not good enough either. <sarcasm>Austria is probably not a safe country, also they probably don't speak German in Austria, and clearly they are very poor in Austria, unlike Germany. </sarcasm>
     
    Last edited: 3 Sep 2015
  11. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    From my limited understanding I don't think it's that simple, a refuge would need to become a citizen of the country where they applied for asylum before legally being allowed to move around the EU, I think that can take around 5 years, not that those 5 years would make much difference.
     
  12. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

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    In the long run, the crises in the home countries is the only way to solve the need for people to flee.

    The EU needs to buck up and fix the disaster that Europe left after the first world war. A solid 10 year military commitment backed with real economic investment would go a long way right now.

    And while on the surface it's easy to suggest that Europe has no responsibility, anyone with a sense of history would know that's simply incorrect.
     
  13. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    People have been drowning from boats capsizing for weeks if not months. One photo gets published in a mainstream broadsheet and suddenly everyone demands action. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Shirty

    Shirty W*nker! Super Moderator

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    People have been drowning from boats capsizing for the best part of a million years*, and refugees have probably been a part of that scene for thousands.

    Nothing is new here, it's just become more conspicuous. I'm no genius, but when your family is about to get shot to s**t, jumping on a crappy old barge in a bid for freedom might seem like quite a good idea.


    *Assuming boats have been capsizing for as long as they have been in use...
     
  15. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Again. There are no official border patrols/controls in Schengen area, and what is happening right now at Slovak/Austrian border (international trains stop at border, and passengeres are asked to move to another train, which filters out refugees) is not a permanent solution. So unless you put the refugees inside a camp which they can't leave, how will you prevent them from moving back to Germany. Let's say you put them in Slovakia. Even if they would be checked on trains/buses, what would prevent them to go to Kuty (Slovakia), walk through the Slovak/Czech border (because in Schengen there are no border patrols) to Lanzhot (Czech Republic - a 10km walk through the unprocted border), take a train/bus from there to northwest Czech Republic and again walk through the unprotected border to Germany ? Same applies to any Schengen country, except Greece, which has no ground border with any other Schengen country.

    I am not arguing against the distribution mechanism. I am saying it will be ineffective in the intended purpose of removing burden from Germany, because until they are going to be in anything else than one of the Italian/French islands, Greece or Sweden/Finland, they will have simple and direct route back to Germany.
     
    Last edited: 3 Sep 2015
  16. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    @faugusztin, Nothing except what you suggested would prevent them, although I'm not sure I'm happy with locking asylum seekers up to prevent them from moving around the EU.

    Given the other choices it seems like the lesser of many evils. :sigh:
     
  17. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    Matain McGuiness has came out and said NI can take a few thousand migrants *if the UK let them in first*. Wait until winter when health becomes an issue and resulting crime when they realise they have no hope of becoming more than a house pet in terms of rights.
    On the note of rebuilding their countries I saw something recently about how Turkey has spotted the opportunity and started rebuilding Somalia investing heavily in the towns around ports. A possible template maybe for other regions?
     
  18. David

    David μoʍ ɼouმ qᴉq λon ƨbԍuq ϝʁλᴉuმ ϝo ʁԍɑq ϝμᴉƨ

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    We'll gladly take more, if someone can persuade our own Chavvy work-dodgers to move to Greece.
     
  19. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    The result of a society that increasingly deals with its population on an emotional level rather than thinking level. It's very vaginal.

    Ninja edit.
    Before someone decides to go for my throat let me just put something out there for you to consider...context.
     
  20. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    It's an option available to most of us but these days not many resort to it as their first option. Instead they get emotional to the point of their emotions blocking any logic and rational thinking, from there on it quickly snowballs into reactionary responses. Whether the responses are logical, rational and pragmatic doesn't matter as long as something is being done. From their point of view that's all that matters.
     

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