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Old 24th Feb 2016, 18:53   #61
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I also don't care how they affect Finland. This is the UK referendum, not a Finnish one. Finland may be some enlightened utopia that has been dragged backwards to shambles and ruin by the EU, but the EU has had positive effects on the UK and its citizens. Is it all sweetness and light? Of course not. It's all about balancing up a set of very complex issues, positives and negatives. I also find it utterly distasteful to be agreeing with Cameron, but for the first time ever he's actually being sensible.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 19:31   #62
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I'm unsure which way I'm voting atm.

With regards to trading with the EU since setting up for myself I've found it much easier doing jobs for Chinese clients in comparison to EU countries. The amount of paperwork is ridiculous then again it's pretty much on par with the UK.

Other than that I don't know enough, I think I need to look into this not being able to implement your own laws. I don't for example understand why the uk pays child benefit abroad when other countries don't.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 20:24   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disequilibria View Post
Oh dear, gold buggism.

The gold standard was the main reason the 1930s depression lasted so long, it means monetary policy can't even operate in a recession. One of the reasons the great depression ended was the end of the gold standard in the 1930s. Its only marginally better in 2008-now like conditions than being in the current state of the euro (if you're not germany). It's economically illiterate to want a currency without moderate inflation because that traps a country in permanent deflation/lowflation which would perma-stagnate economies

Gold has no intrinsic value, it only has value because people believe it does; mainly for "look at the shiny" reasons. How about those Yap stones, loads of commodities have been currencies in history, gold ain't special.
The gold-standard wasn't the reason at all. The reason was that the banks back then lended more money than they actually had as they operated on the same bogus fractional reserve banking system we still have today.

Also, gold has a real value. It's chemical and physical characteristics make it highly valuable, which is why it was used for the last 2-3 thousand years as money. Gold will allways be very useful in a plethora of technologies, medical applications, etc and never loose much of it's value.

Within the next couple of years, end of the decade, the governements will phase out cash and completely replace it with electronic money. At this point they're free to make a reset at any time they want, destroying huge amounts of monetary wealth.
I'd rather have hard physical assets in this case, like real estate or precious metals. And even if they decide to take away my land for whatever reason, I'll still have enough precious metals to get by for a couple of years to come.

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Originally Posted by Cei View Post
I also don't care how they affect Finland. This is the UK referendum, not a Finnish one. Finland may be some enlightened utopia that has been dragged backwards to shambles and ruin by the EU, but the EU has had positive effects on the UK and its citizens. Is it all sweetness and light? Of course not. It's all about balancing up a set of very complex issues, positives and negatives. I also find it utterly distasteful to be agreeing with Cameron, but for the first time ever he's actually being sensible.
Sorry to bring Finland into the mix. However there's one point that in that whole EU-UK deal that affects all of the EU-countries. Why are we giving the UK any special treatment to begin with? Either all countries get the same deals or noone gets any at all.

So yeah, I'm voting to throw thew UK out oif the EU actually, if they get their special treatments while Finland doesn't. Either we're all equal in this union or there is no union to begin with.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 20:33   #64
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It seems like there is as much good reasons to stay that there is to leave. I noted that both sides are at least agreeing on one point, the E.U is dysfunctional in its current state and would requires a lot of changes. I'm wondering if 'Brexit' would trigger positive changes in the E.U structure or its downfall? No matter the outcome of the referendum, the E.U will have to consider changes.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 21:29   #65
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“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of 7bn out of total government expenditure of 695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 21:37   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Within the next couple of years, end of the decade, the governements will phase out cash and completely replace it with electronic money. At this point they're free to make a reset at any time they want, destroying huge amounts of monetary wealth.
Can you explain why moving from banknotes and coins to electronic transfers will allow them to "reset....destroying huge amounts of monetary wealth"?

I am unclear what you mean though I acknowledge that governments can destroy wealth effectively as it is.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 21:52   #67
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Aslong as there's huge amounts of coins and bills in fluctuation the government is unable to switch to a new currency over the weekend. Before the EURO was introduced alot of people took their money and invested it in hard assets prior to it being rendered less valuable. If all is electronic, they can tho, and basically devaluate all your money without you having any time to react to it.
Mind you, when the EURO hit, we saw a double digit inflation for the following year.

That's the difference between cash and electronic only, if all is electronic they can switch currencies without announcing it prior to the switch.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 22:10   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
The gold-standard wasn't the reason at all. The reason was that the banks back then lended more money than they actually had as they operated on the same bogus fractional reserve banking system we still have today.
Didn't say the cause of the depression but why the effects persisted and were so strong over the years following. I.e being forced into tight monetary policy. Also the move off the gold standard signalled a permanent monetary expansion, much like increasing the inflation target would. Change expectations, change outcomes. Expectations are very important to macro economic policy making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Also, gold has a real value. It's chemical and physical characteristics make it highly valuable, which is why it was used for the last 2-3 thousand years as money. Gold will allways be very useful in a plethora of technologies, medical applications, etc and never loose much of it's value.
Then the opportunity cost of storing it as and asset is at the expense of those uses. Using it to back currency has barely any support even in the heterodox areas of economics. Mainly because of the lack of inflation it brings (some inflation is needed) prolonging depressions and how hard it makes it to operate monetary policy making recessions deeper and longer.

Its chemical and physical characteristics make it a good candidate for wealth storage as commodity money goes. Most the current value is because of speculative and monetary reasons. Any element will always have some value especially if it is rare but gold's status is largely cultural, there have been societies that didn't value it at all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Within the next couple of years, end of the decade, the governements will phase out cash and completely replace it with electronic money. At this point they're free to make a reset at any time they want, destroying huge amounts of monetary wealth.
I'd rather have hard physical assets in this case, like real estate or precious metals. And even if they decide to take away my land for whatever reason, I'll still have enough precious metals to get by for a couple of years to come.
Problem with gold is it doesn't pay a dividend or a rent. It's incredibly
volatile. Spiking in periods of high inflation as a hedge against inflation such as the 1970s but performs badly in that duty, in severe recessions as a flight to safety yet inevitably provide poor returns for people who partake in these periods as the price inevitably decreases when normal times resume. 1940-72 and 1980- 2007 saw long periods where the gold price was low, US/UK index linked bonds would be better bets. The volatility could wipe out massive amounts of your personal wealth without a return to the same value for many years.

Real estate is a better bet, at least in the UK. Properties can pay a rent and in the UK it will be a long time before homeowners dwindle enough for the NIMBYs to have a small enough say in our democracy to result in addressing of the housing supply problem that despite crashes like the early 90s and 08-09 will ensure the long term trend is always up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackSwordsMan View Post
It seems like there is as much good reasons to stay that there is to leave. I noted that both sides are at least agreeing on one point, the E.U is dysfunctional in its current state and would requires a lot of changes. I'm wondering if 'Brexit' would trigger positive changes in the E.U structure or its downfall? No matter the outcome of the referendum, the E.U will have to consider changes.
Problem is the EU moves at a snails pace to reform. All an in vote would tell them is that well thats the last we'll hear from the UK for the next 30-40 years on this, the EU will not consider change because of an in vote. The only other issue forwarding change is a fundamental eurozone issue, even on that 2 years to OMT to intervene in the secondary bond market, 5 years to go for QE. Slow to cut interest rates and those are all responsibilities of the central bank which should have acted as quickly and decisively as the US/UK central banks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archtronics View Post
I'm unsure which way I'm voting atm.

With regards to trading with the EU since setting up for myself I've found it much easier doing jobs for Chinese clients in comparison to EU countries. The amount of paperwork is ridiculous then again it's pretty much on par with the UK.

Other than that I don't know enough, I think I need to look into this not being able to implement your own laws. I don't for example understand why the uk pays child benefit abroad when other countries don't.
Also worth looking into the democratic deficit as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Aslong as there's huge amounts of coins and bills in fluctuation the government is unable to switch to a new currency over the weekend.
Oh... yes you can.

Just fill up the cash machines with whatever currency your changing to, set an exchange rate and period to exchange, convert all bank balances then open on Tuesday because Monday would be a special bank holiday.

Last edited by Disequilibria; 24th Feb 2016 at 22:20.
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 23:21   #69
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Could a Brexit lead to a Brexplosion?

Assuming the "leave" parties are successful in campaigning, would / could a Brexit lead to the breakup of the union, with region(s) seeking independence to allow them to remain in the EU?

Just wondering if anyone else had thoughts about this?
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 23:26   #70
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Quote:
"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
Like if we had never joined the common market they would never of traded with us anyway. (as we can't go back in time to see what the alternate figure would be outside of the EU it becomes a none comparative stat and not relavent)
Quote:
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
because we would never spend any of the money we send to the EU in self improvement.
Quote:
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
Again speculation that the UK would not of done this anyway (cannot be proved either way)
Quote:
lead free petrol;
If we had not been in the EU do you think car makers would of continued to produce a UK only lead fuel engine. "leaded gasoline was phased out in the USA beginning in 1973" " First European countries started replacing lead by the end of the 1980s and by the end of the 1990s leaded gasoline was banned within the entire European Union."
Quote:
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
yeah but if our large bundles of plastic are found to be not just plastic (ie mixed waste) then it becomes that thing we ship aross the world for a poorer country to deal with because it is uneconomical for us to do. so yeah works well.
Quote:
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
Major first world issues that needed addressing.
Quote:
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
Because if any government was given hard evidence that somthing was dangerous or unsafe they would never address it. (again you can't say if we where not in the EU it would not of happened)
Quote:
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
I feel many southern european counties would disagree
Quote:
break up of monopolies;
MICROSOFT
Quote:
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
so that China can make a cheap clone instead of someone else.
Quote:
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
just so much more paperwork/box ticking/more paperwork/etc to actually get anything into an EU market in the first place.
Quote:
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
because in the internet age it is so difficult to compare actual and offered exchange rates and charges.
Quote:
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
Have passport/work permit will travel, never stopped people traveling to or working in europe before.
Quote:
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
Because our education system is sooooo bad and i really should send student on a funded european jolly with my tax contributions.
Quote:
access to European health services;
Europes access to our "i wish my countries was as good as this" health system
Quote:
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
Again can't say whether we would or would not have similar laws if we did not join the EU. (see no time machine)
Quote:
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
Because the UK goverment has never invested in it own industry or future.
Quote:
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
Bcause the 5th largest economy would never get into the WTO.
Quote:
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
so because we leave someone will get nuclear weapons... or that we are unable to do the same outside of the EU.
Quote:
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
Will we not also be co-operating from outside the EU. Or are we just letting them go.
Quote:
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
because it works so well, like when oh wait france alone did that, ok well how about when... no that was the UN... errr when... no that was the UK and the US. If you could get everyone in the EU to agree well maybe. it's not like we would be unable to joint venture from outside the EU.
Quote:
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
Ask Greece/Spain/Italy/etc
Quote:
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
Because the modern UK is a bloodthirsty country. The UK leaving will not make Germany invade poland.
Quote:
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Heaven help those poor countries because the UK outside of the EU would never of helped.
Quote:
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of 7bn out of total government expenditure of 695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.
TTIP is the next thing in the pipeline that underlines its failure, and furthermore undermines the memberstates power.

There is an assumption that none of this would of happened if it was not for our membership of the EU. No one can prove either way what would of/could of/should of, happened.

What is being asked, is what now, is it to stay in what will become "Greater Europe" and loose more control to the EU (face it we can't stop them passing those laws or changing the rules) or to leave, and heaven help the 5th largest economy in the world, to be able work it out from outside the EU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatee View Post
Could a Brexit lead to a Brexplosion?

Assuming the "leave" parties are successful in campaigning, would / could a Brexit lead to the breakup of the union, with region(s) seeking independence to allow them to remain in the EU?

Just wondering if anyone else had thoughts about this?
As far as I know if the UK votes to leave and say Scotland votes to leave the UK, Scotland would have to re apply to the EU (under the qualifying rules) for membership, as the current EU agreements and laws are with the UK government and not scotlands parliment.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 00:06   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Aslong as there's huge amounts of coins and bills in fluctuation the government is unable to switch to a new currency over the weekend. Before the EURO was introduced alot of people took their money and invested it in hard assets prior to it being rendered less valuable. If all is electronic, they can tho, and basically devaluate all your money without you having any time to react to it.
Mind you, when the EURO hit, we saw a double digit inflation for the following year.

That's the difference between cash and electronic only, if all is electronic they can switch currencies without announcing it prior to the switch.
If the government of the day passes the law they can redenominate your banknotes into rainbow feathers if they want. Electronic money isn't any different, just a way of accounting.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 00:28   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risky View Post
If the government of the day passes the law they can redenominate your banknotes into rainbow feathers if they want. Electronic money isn't any different, just a way of accounting.

I feel the world would be somewhat a better place
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 07:31   #73
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Your reason for:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
So yeah, fcuk the EU in it's current state.
Are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
  • all EU-members should have the same laws and rules.
  • We can't elect the EU-government directly.
  • the EU-parliament doesn't have any power.
You don't want less EU, you want A LOT MORE EU

Problem is, the UK doesn't want that, they just want a trade economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Why are we giving the UK any special treatment to begin with? Either all countries get the same deals or noone gets any at all.
This.

The British boys want a say larger than their share, while paying less than their share, and using that say to brake the entire process of forming a EU.
Can't blame them though, they have a different goal. The British boys prefer an EEC over a EU.
Maybe they're right.

Anyway as you stated before, in a true EU, all states should be treated the same, and we'd need at least a fiscal union for the euro to work, which again means a lot more EU.
They don't want that (many other countries don't) so maybe out is the way.

One positive side to leaving the EU is the British politicians can't blame the EU for everything anymore


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Originally Posted by aramil View Post
I feel the world would be somewhat a better place
Ah, the Italians would just ban you from carrying more than three feathers at a time!
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 07:32   #74
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
a problem all around the world with the FIAT-money system
As a previous owner of a number of FIAT's I have to agree they made shambles of my monitary system.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 09:22   #75
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Originally Posted by Cei View Post
I also find it utterly distasteful to be agreeing with Cameron, but for the first time ever he's actually being sensible.
I totally understand and empathise with you.

I so want to vote out just to stick two fingers up at Cameron, not because of any dislike for him but more just to say i think what he's negotiated is fairly worthless and that an in/out referendum shouldn't be a motivator for getting a better deal, they should be putting in the effort that he has in negotiating a better deal all the time, not just because they're being threatened with something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archtronics View Post
Other than that I don't know enough, I think I need to look into this not being able to implement your own laws. I don't for example understand why the uk pays child benefit abroad when other countries don't.
According to fullfact.org has a good analysis of the claim that we can't enact our own laws, to summarise they say...
Quote:
In 2010, the House of Commons library published a comprehensive analysis of the variety of ways this percentage can be calculated. There are difficulties with all measurements, but they concluded "it is possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts".
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
because we would never spend any of the money we send to the EU in self improvement.
Based on the last few years of austerity i would say we wouldn't have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Again speculation that the UK would not of done this anyway (cannot be proved either way)
It probably is speculation but seeing as how bad things were before the EU intervened and how difficult we're finding it to meet targets for clean beaches, rivers, and cleaner air i would say we wouldn't have done it our self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Major first world issues that needed addressing.
Major first world issues or not it's still nice not to be getting screwed over mobile charges and air travel, is it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Because our education system is sooooo bad and i really should send student on a funded european jolly with my tax contributions.
Whatever our education system is i know one thing for sure, it sure is expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Again can't say whether we would or would not have similar laws if we did not join the EU. (see no time machine)
Well based on how politicians fought against some of those changes we can say fairly confidently that they wouldn't have brought in similar laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Because the UK goverment has never invested in it own industry or future.
Is banking count as an industry? If so then yea we do, if not though i would argue that the amount of investment in our own industries have been sorely lacking, you only have to compare the amount invested in the steel industry to see that investment in what's typically though of as industry has been on the decline for many, many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Will we not also be co-operating from outside the EU. Or are we just letting them go.
Yes we'd be able to cooperate from outside the EU but without the European arrest warrant it would take much longer to get anything done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
TTIP is the next thing in the pipeline that underlines its failure, and furthermore undermines the memberstates power.
You'll get no argument from me on that point, TTIP would be one poisonous piece of regulation if it came into force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
There is an assumption that none of this would of happened if it was not for our membership of the EU. No one can prove either way what would of/could of/should of, happened.
True no one can "prove" either way but we can make educated assumptions based on all available evidence, like we can assume that our rivers, beaches and air pollution would've only got worse seeing as that was the direction of travel before the EU forced change on the UK.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 10:11   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir View Post
Problem is, the UK doesn't want that, they just want a trade economy.
Because when we joined (and last voted) this is what our and the european governments said we where joining.
Quote:
The British boys prefer an EEC over a EU.
Maybe they're right.

Anyway as you stated before, in a true EU, all states should be treated the same, and we'd need at least a fiscal union for the euro to work, which again means a lot more EU.
They don't want that (many other countries don't) so maybe out is the way.
pretty much sums it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
*snippy*

Is banking count as an industry? If so then yea we do, if not though i would argue that the amount of investment in our own industries have been sorely lacking, you only have to compare the amount invested in the steel industry to see that investment in what's typically though of as industry has been on the decline for many, many years.
sorry the EU says i cannot do things to any industry that would give them an uncompetative edge over other EU states. And I can not stop China for example flooding the uk with cheaper products without EU approval.

Quote:
True no one can "prove" either way but we can make educated assumptions based on all available evidence, like we can assume that our rivers, beaches and air pollution would've only got worse seeing as that was the direction of travel before the EU forced change on the UK.
This assumes that in the proceeding years public demand, from not being in the EU and so not having the "it's them" excuse would of made them do any of it. 40 years is a long time for change and without the EU we could of travelled a different path. so who really knows.

The whole EU idea has become toxic setting germans against greek, french against itallians, etc. It is no longer outward & forward looking, and has become insular and closed almost stuck in an idea of the past (trying to protect everything and allow nothing). To survive it needs at least a fiscal union for the euro to work, which again means a lot more EU. And as stated by many people you will never get all of these countries to agree to give up that much control.

What other option is there? A Europe wide trade deal anyone?

If the EU countries had actually been honest in the first part and had sat round a table on worked on a who/what/where/when of a unified europe which was democratically responcable and accountable would we be having these issues now? People complain when our government outright lies to us, and we call for change/get rid of them/reform, yet it seems to be OK when the EU does it (mainly via the back door), because sometimes they do something that may be worthwhile (or at least try to claim credit for global changes (unleaded fuel)).

It is broken, and if it takes the UK to give it a good kick in the teeth and a bloody nose for the rest of the EU to realise that and do something about it, then all the better, but it won't happen if we stay.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 10:39   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
sorry the EU says i cannot do things to any industry that would give them an uncompetative edge over other EU states. And I can not stop China for example flooding the uk with cheaper products without EU approval.
While true in part i feel you've missed some key points, yes we can't do things to any industry that would give them an uncompetative edge over other EU states, but the EU can and has slapped tariffs on cheap imports, something that out current government tried to block, that seems to indicate that our current government is/was happy with the effect of cheap imports on our industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
This assumes that in the proceeding years public demand, from not being in the EU and so not having the "it's them" excuse would of made them do any of it. 40 years is a long time for change and without the EU we could of travelled a different path. so who really knows.
Based purely on the example above i would suggest that we can make an educated guess, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
The whole EU idea has become toxic setting...
<Snip>
I kind of agree but then again i think it all started out wrong, if they had an end goal to start with things probably would've worked out much better, as it is we either have to work with what we've got and try to make things better or just admit it's broken and go back to the pre-EU days.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 10:53   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
While true in part i feel you've missed some key points, yes we can't do things to any industry that would give them an uncompetative edge over other EU states, but the EU can and has slapped tariffs on cheap imports, something that out current government tried to block, that seems to indicate that our current government is/was happy with the effect of cheap imports on our industry.

Based purely on the example above i would suggest that we can make an educated guess, no?
No. (calls for speculation over a 40 year period ending up with exactly the same government we have today)

Quote:
I kind of agree but then again i think it all started out wrong, if they had an end goal to start with things probably would've worked out much better, as it is we either have to work with what we've got and try to make things better or just admit it's broken and go back to the pre-EU days.
but you can't change what does not want to change or in fact is not accountable.

Corky42 is head of the EU, with his chums. he is unelected as are his chums.
He has a commision of chums and they run EU law.
He has a court which can over rule any memeber states courts and enforce any change the above makes.

Would Corky42 and chums (who are well paid) allow one (noisey nation) to remove the power they hold and make it democratic and hold them to account? without almost all the other EU countries demanding the same? (which realistically you will not get).

I agree with the idea, but it will never happen.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 11:43   #79
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No. (calls for speculation over a 40 year period ending up with exactly the same government we have today)
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one then as i think making an educated guess based on all the available evidence isn't beyond most people, granted they may come to different conclusions than myself and others but that doesn't mean anyone's opinion on how a government would've acted under different circumstances is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
but you can't change what does not want to change or in fact is not accountable.
We know that's not true, if the EU does not want to change then how did Mr Cameron negotiate the changes (putting aside the significance of those changes). That's what annoys me so much, it's not like the EU is deaf to complaints or changes so why did it take the threat of a country leaving for them to actual do something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
Corky42 is head of the EU, with his chums. he is unelected as are his chums.
He has a commision of chums and they run EU law.
He has a court which can over rule any memeber states courts and enforce any change the above makes.
Corky42 would be Livin' la Vida Loca,

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramil View Post
I agree with the idea, but it will never happen.
Just because an idea may never happen though that doesn't mean, for me personally, that you should just throw in the towel, many people though out history thought something would never happen but women got the vote, apartheid ended, etc, etc.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 11:47   #80
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Originally Posted by Xir View Post

The British boys want a say larger than their share, while paying less than their share, and using that say to brake the entire process of forming a EU.
Can't blame them though, they have a different goal. The British boys prefer an EEC over a EU.
Maybe they're right.
Not sure where not paying their share came in.

If you look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget...European_Union you can see that the UK is one of the net contributors, there is a rebate but that is because the so much of the budget was spent of agricultural subsidies and the UK has a smaller and more commercial agriculture sector and without the rebate would have ended up funding the farmers of richer countries.
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