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Old 2nd Mar 2016, 13:35   #121
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You'll have to forgive me for breaking up your post so much it's just you seem to have mixed genuine question about the EU with political posturing and personal opinions.

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Gotta say that article keeps bringing me to a few concerns I have questions about
1) 5th Largest Economy and one of the biggest military spends too - surely leaving then weakens Europe not ourselves. We're no longer focusing on defending them but ourselves. We can negioate
If we leave we're not going suddenly find that we can't trade with other nations, it will take time for the effects to be felt, things like having to pay tariffs may well push up the price of goods over time, whether that will be outbalance by not having to pay contributions to the EU who knows.

AFAIK military spending is related to NATAO and not the EU, although at a guess we probably sell more military stuff to other EU nations than we buy from them, but the amount of military spending (afaik) isn't related to either being in or out.

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(Look at Cameron go achieving the unachievable with his handbag at dawn) and continue to build our economy without having to prop up a French farmer or a factory in Romania.
This is the part where you veer off into political posturing and personal opinion (IMHO), so speaking in kind, personally, i would say what Mr Cameron has come back with is all but meaningless, that's not to say he didn't try or that he done a bad job, i just think it's more a reflection on the EU than Mr Cameron.

Not sure how you're defining continuing to build our economy as lot of people would disagree seeing as we went from 4th to 6th to 5th largest economy under Mr Cameron's stewardship.

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2) if Europe is on the Ropes as the article puts it and our leaving could cause collapse then why on earth is staying on a sinking ship the logical way forward? I want to be on a liferaft when that ship sinks not in the engine room throwing more coal on the fire.
Because staying on the sinking ship could be the difference between having enough people bailing out the water to prevent the ship from sinking, versus not have enough and you getting off the ship causing it to capsize.

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3) the whole notion of "large punishments" to discourage others from leaving again reminds me of the captain holding everyone hostage. "How dare we leave his ship"
Yea well if i was the captain of the ship and people gave up on bailing out water i would be fairly adamant that people not abandon ship and leave the rest of us to drown.

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4) the article also assumes Europe is the only place we could trade with. What about the US, Russia, India, China, Brazil, Iran. TBH I don't care about being the moral compass of the world. If we leave let the US and Europe do that. I'd happily trade with Russia for oil and Gas if Europe imposed sanctions...and yes it is sanctions they are already threatening to impose.
One word tariffs.

Also got any source for the claim that other EU nations are talking about sanctions on us if we leave, or have i got the wrong end of the stick.

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TBH the more I hear everyday from the stay in camp the more I want to leave. As cometely irrational as it is, Cameron is doing more harm than good and over the last few months has resorted to name calling on every single issue that someone doesn't agree with him on. Donald Trump is more eloquent than him and I disagree with everything he says.
What surprises me the most is when the IN camp says leaving would be catastrophic for the UK, if that's so then WTH was a EU referendum a part of Mr Cameron's manifesto, if leaving would be so bad wouldn't it have just been better not to take the risk.
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Old 2nd Mar 2016, 14:45   #122
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From the little I understand on the topic (And we're talking a very small amount here); The UK and the EU rely on each-other rather a lot, but anyone trying to uphold our government as the bastion of moral society needs some eyesight checking, what with bills such as the Investigatory Powers Bill being shoved through.

Equally; I feel that the open borders are having an effect on this country, both good and bad, those coming into this country to work I welcome, I work alongside a fairly varied ethnic group at my current job, ranging from all across the EU, but they're all unified in the fact they came here to work, while I know of others who enter into the country with the intention not to work. Mass immigration, in the kind we're seeing currently across the EU, is causing self-segregation as those immigrating are, broadly, bringing the very same culture with them that they're trying to escape in the first place.

I'm somewhat on the fence with regards to it, ultimately; I feel that it might benefit the UK in the short term as it would give us the ability to self-determine over what we currently have in the EU, but it would also remove several safety nets, some of which we have used in the past.

Problem is that now is not a good time to be thinking in the short term, with all the troubles currently hopping up around the world, ranging from America potentially getting a man who seems to be outright off his rocker in the white house, all the way over to North Korea allegedly considering throwing around WMDs; Now is not the best time to be holding this.

Ultimately; I'd vote Stay. Because I honestly feel that with everything else going on in the world this is not the best time to leave, despite it being the best time to pose the question, since all the unrest will ensure it gets heavy coverage, and it feels like Cameron et 'al is banking on the rising dissatisfaction with the EU to force his point across, I just wonder if they've truly considered the ramifications down the road, or if they literally don't care about anything that may happen once their time in office is complete.
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Old 2nd Mar 2016, 15:46   #123
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...on-system.html


I agree - we should totally have a points system based on wanted skill set similar to Australia / new zealand
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Old 2nd Mar 2016, 18:51   #124
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.

Ultimately; I'd vote Stay. Because I honestly feel that with everything else going on in the world this is not the best time to leave.
True, 2047 will be a much better time to vote leave......
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Old 2nd Mar 2016, 22:30   #125
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True, 2047 will be a much better time to vote leave......
I have no idea, but even if it were delayed a mere two years; at least some of the chaos going on around the world would've, hopefully, been sorted out a little more by that point. Now is just not a good time to be rocking a boat which is already rolling around on rough seas.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 13:27   #126
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I have no idea, but even if it were delayed a mere two years; at least some of the chaos going on around the world would've, hopefully, been sorted out a little more by that point. Now is just not a good time to be rocking a boat which is already rolling around on rough seas.
In another 2 years, the Pro-EU faction could have sold us down the river even more than they already have. I would prefer that British citizens are governed by a party/government voted for by us, and not some nameless quango/eurocrat running things in Brussels. I will be voting OUT because, as far as I can see, it's the only way of gaining control of our country.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 15:27   #127
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Gotta say that article keeps bringing me to a few concerns I have questions about
1) 5th Largest Economy and one of the biggest military spends too - surely leaving then weakens Europe not ourselves. We're no longer focusing on defending them but ourselves. We can negioate (Look at Cameron go achieving the unachievable with his handbag at dawn) and continue to build our economy without having to prop up a French farmer or a factory in Romania.
2) if Europe is on the Ropes as the article puts it and our leaving could cause collapse then why on earth is staying on a sinking ship the logical way forward? I want to be on a liferaft when that ship sinks not in the engine room throwing more coal on the fire.
3) the whole notion of "large punishments" to discourage others from leaving again reminds me of the captain holding everyone hostage. "How dare we leave his ship"
4) the article also assumes Europe is the only place we could trade with. What about the US, Russia, India, China, Brazil, Iran. TBH I don't care about being the moral compass of the world. If we leave let the US and Europe do that. I'd happily trade with Russia for oil and Gas if Europe imposed sanctions...and yes it is sanctions they are already threatening to impose.

TBH the more I hear everyday from the stay in camp the more I want to leave. As cometely irrational as it is, Cameron is doing more harm than good and over the last few months has resorted to name calling on every single issue that someone doesn't agree with him on. Donald Trump is more eloquent than him and I disagree with everything he says.
1. Depends on whether you want the enemy stopped at Europe's borders, or at the UK's. When Europe falls, the UK falls.
2. When the European economy collapses, the UK economy collapses. All being part of a global economy.
3. Because there are repercussions for everybody if one member leaves, there will be penalties. Not punishment, just consequences.
4. Trading with immoral nations tends to get you screwed over by them --it's what immoral nations do. And you do not want to live in a world where immoral nations prosper. You really don't. Civilisation has made you soft and complacent, but it's like Tinkerbell: the fairy only lives while people believe in her. Take a long hard look at South America, China and the Middle East and ask yourself if you want that over here. That in itself is reason enough to support the EU. Meanwhile even the US considers the EU a greater priority in trade agreements than the UK, and being more dependent on countries like the US, Russia, China etc. puts the UK in a weaker bargaining position economically.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 15:35   #128
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True, 2047 will be a much better time to vote leave......
Personally? I am scared about the future. Really, genuinely worried. Unless some real drastic changes happen in the next decade, in 2047 I suspect the global economy will collapse and we're back to feudal times with Pharaoic levels of inequality. Europe is the last bastion of civilization --and perhaps the US and Canada. I think we should stick together. Hard.

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In another 2 years, the Pro-EU faction could have sold us down the river even more than they already have. I would prefer that British citizens are governed by a party/government voted for by us, and not some nameless quango/eurocrat running things in Brussels. I will be voting OUT because, as far as I can see, it's the only way of gaining control of our country.
We are part of a global economy. We lost 'control over our own countries' (if we ordinary citizens ever had it) long ago. We are part of a global network of interdependencies, not a British Empire ruling the world.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 15:54   #129
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35712463

and now Hollande is threatening the voters of the UK


time to leave and shut the door - want to come here illegally? you`ll be back in france on the next boat.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 16:14   #130
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4. Trading with immoral nations tends to get you screwed over by them --it's what immoral nations do. And you do not want to live in a world where immoral nations prosper.
Right because only the most moral of nations invade other nations based on non existent WMDs, implement one of the largest planetry mass surveillance operations which it uses on its own citizens and puts a firewall on their access to the internet. Let's not delve into Britain's imperialistic history. Britain is many things, but moral she ain't.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 17:11   #131
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I recall that the UN and most of the EU were vociferously opposed to the invasion of Iraq. But the UK decided to go with the US on this one...

On a sliding scale contemporary Britain, the EU and the US are a bit less immoral than many countries. We still have some rights. In many other countries people have none.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 17:53   #132
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35712463

and now Hollande is threatening the voters of the UK


time to leave and shut the door - want to come here illegally? you`ll be back in france on the next boat.
Except that is never going to happen. We'll end up with shanty towns of refugees on the UK's shores, not in France. Yet if the UK tries to ship them back to France/EU they won't be permitted entry there either. France is well within its right to withdraw from the bilateral treaty allowing the UK to check people's immigration status before arriving on our shores. Withdrawing from the EU is going to piss France off, so they'll likely cancel the treaty...because why should they keep it, when the UK is being a selfish dick?



I can't believe how short sighted people are being on this. I swear it's bringing out the inner racist in vast swathes of the UK population, who can only think of "immigrants" as people who steal jobs and get up to no good. The immigration crisis in Europe isn't from people who just fancy a new job or some benefits, it's swathes of people who are running from oppressive regimes and harm to themselves. Circumstances that, ultimately, lie at the feet of countries like the UK. ISIS is a creation of Western policies (aka: wars) in the Middle East, and we have to accept that.

Sometimes I feel that decisions such as this shouldn't go to referendum, because my confidence in the intelligence of the populace as a whole is lacking. I mean, people vote UKIP for chrissakes.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 18:29   #133
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I think people are just generally scared of different cultures rather than the individuals, which causes them to vote for the likes of UKIP.

Chatting to be polish folks next door today I was surprised when they said they would vote to leave if given the chance. I must admit all this scaremongering is pushing me more and more to the leave camp just to see if britain will look like fallout.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 18:31   #134
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I recall that the UN and most of the EU were vociferously opposed to the invasion of Iraq. But the UK decided to go with the US on this one...

On a sliding scale contemporary Britain, the EU and the US are a bit less immoral than many countries. We still have some rights. In many other countries people have none.
Just pedantry on the fact that having less of a negative quality doesn't mean you are devoid of the negative quality.

It's a little difficult to write that succinctly in an abstract manner.
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 18:36   #135
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 11:09   #136
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Except that is never going to happen. We'll end up with shanty towns of refugees on the UK's shores, not in France. Yet if the UK tries to ship them back to France/EU they won't be permitted entry there either. France is well within its right to withdraw from the bilateral treaty allowing the UK to check people's immigration status before arriving on our shores. Withdrawing from the EU is going to piss France off, so they'll likely cancel the treaty...because why should they keep it, when the UK is being a selfish dick?
Or you just make the ferry/train companies check the legal status of everyone travelling to the uk and create a passenger manifest, and fine them lots "hundreds per" if they are found not to be compliant. Easly done as a condition of entry to UK port/stations. the companies would be screaming at France to help police their end because doing it at our end costs them to much money.

Quote:
I can't believe how short sighted people are being on this. I swear it's bringing out the inner racist in vast swathes of the UK population, who can only think of "immigrants" as people who steal jobs and get up to no good. The immigration crisis in Europe isn't from people who just fancy a new job or some benefits, it's swathes of people who are running from oppressive regimes and harm to themselves. Circumstances that, ultimately, lie at the feet of countries like the UK. ISIS is a creation of Western policies (aka: wars) in the Middle East, and we have to accept that.

Sometimes I feel that decisions such as this shouldn't go to referendum, because my confidence in the intelligence of the populace as a whole is lacking. I mean, people vote UKIP for chrissakes.
not sure most of that was needed..... to sum up, most poeple in the UK are closset rasists that don't understand world pollotics and therefore should not be allowed to vote.

So because there is a chance that the UK may vote in a way you do not agree with, you would rather write all of them off as "UKIP voters.....", and some how there voice is less important than your's.

To note I have never voted UKIP, and have not once in this discussion lowered myself to blame it all on those "evil folk from over the sea ".

The thread is about the UK's continued (or not) membership of the EU. The migrant problems will still be there with or without our membership. In all honesty it's not like the EU are doing a stand up job of dealing with any of it at the moment.
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 22:43   #137
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
1. Depends on whether you want the enemy stopped at Europe's borders, or at the UK's. When Europe falls, the UK falls.
2. When the European economy collapses, the UK economy collapses. All being part of a global economy.
3. Because there are repercussions for everybody if one member leaves, there will be penalties. Not punishment, just consequences.
4. Trading with immoral nations tends to get you screwed over by them --it's what immoral nations do. And you do not want to live in a world where immoral nations prosper. You really don't. Civilisation has made you soft and complacent, but it's like Tinkerbell: the fairy only lives while people believe in her. Take a long hard look at South America, China and the Middle East and ask yourself if you want that over here. That in itself is reason enough to support the EU. Meanwhile even the US considers the EU a greater priority in trade agreements than the UK, and being more dependent on countries like the US, Russia, China etc. puts the UK in a weaker bargaining position economically.
I agree with your points,
2. Depending on your view of history not adopting the Euro meant the recession "wasn't as bad" as it could of been. That is a very high level overview and more localised struggles are well documented. By breaking that bond with Europe and setting up more stable trade with other nations as well, In my mind we won't be as vulnerable to Europe failing. Even the French have said there is a Jealously, that if the UK leaves why should they get access and the advantages over those that are working together. By the same logic we are loosing out because we cannot carry out trade deals without Europe taking it's slice.

3. There will be consequences and penalties but from the way the in camp are talking they will look to go above and beyond with these as an example. Like the French letting the Migrants through assuming they will still want to come. If the In camp is correct, life will be hell here with no jobs and no trade.

4. Who's to say Europe is moral? Capitalist vs Socialist, dog eat dog etc. Yes China is far from perfect but I don't believe the West can be held up a a beacon of the right way to go. Yes we have rights, rights last time I looked the government has been caught ignoring and eroding on a daily basis. At least Russia and China don't pretend to the same extent.

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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
You'll have to forgive me for breaking up your post so much it's just you seem to have mixed genuine question about the EU with political posturing and personal opinions.
I am genuinely conflicted. Out don't seem to have any form of campaign or response to anything the In campaign puts forward. It still seems the stage where people declare their sides, give a few ooh's and aahh's and hope that the latest endorsement wins over the more people. Throw in a few finger wagging and name calling and that's how its looking to me

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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
AFAIK military spending is related to NATAO and not the EU, although at a guess we probably sell more military stuff to other EU nations than we buy from them, but the amount of military spending (afaik) isn't related to either being in or out.

It will be affected based on the remaining budget. Our position in NATO will likely change. Isn't the UK buddied with France when it comes to aircraft carriers? A divorce could be awkward.

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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
This is the part where you veer off into political posturing and personal opinion (IMHO), so speaking in kind, personally, i would say what Mr Cameron has come back with is all but meaningless, that's not to say he didn't try or that he done a bad job, i just think it's more a reflection on the EU than Mr Cameron.
A wee bit. It was more drawing a parallel to Cameron going to battle over things wrong with Europe. The deal was almost too easy and in my eyes he either asked for too little or it was all meaninglessness grandstanding where everyone was playing to the script.

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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Not sure how you're defining continuing to build our economy as lot of people would disagree seeing as we went from 4th to 6th to 5th largest economy under Mr Cameron's stewardship.
Yes Cameron has failed horribly but India, China, Brazil, Japan, Korea, Russia all do well and they're not part of Europe. I've mentioned above that Europe is possibly holding us back being our main trading partner and wanting to take a slice if a deal is made. Voting out gives us a chance to cut the red tape, cut the chains and do deals that benefit us.

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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Because staying on the sinking ship could be the difference between having enough people bailing out the water to prevent the ship from sinking, versus not have enough and you getting off the ship causing it to capsize.

Yea well if i was the captain of the ship and people gave up on bailing out water i would be fairly adamant that people not abandon ship and leave the rest of us to drown.
There comes a point when the ship can't be saved. Why should we remove all the water when the captain is taking on more people who are drilling more holes. Just look how they are kicking Greece when they are down. The Greek issue is another situation created by Europe's actions and even now their actions aren't that of a united front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
One word tariffs.

Also got any source for the claim that other EU nations are talking about sanctions on us if we leave, or have i got the wrong end of the stick.
Ye there will be consequences and they will place tariffs but they will go above and beyond to make an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
What surprises me the most is when the IN camp says leaving would be catastrophic for the UK, if that's so then WTH was a EU referendum a part of Mr Cameron's manifesto, if leaving would be so bad wouldn't it have just been better not to take the risk.
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Old 5th Mar 2016, 03:48   #138
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Im out. The EU has changed beyond recognition to the organisation we joined at the start.

I don't think most 'outers' are arguing the EU has done nothing for the UK, clearly there are pros of being a fully paid up member & the EU has certainly made progress on employment, consumer rights etc. But the pros have fast become outweighed by negatives, the EU has become so monolithic and bureaucratic it is completely ineffective - take the current refugee crisis for a start & look how it has dealt with that.

So against a backdrop of;
- A huge migrant/refugee/humanitarian crisis
- Greece about to ask for another round of bailout funding
- Italy entering negotiations with the EU to bailout their banks
- France on the verge of recession
- Prospect of Turkey becoming a member within two years

I think i'd rather jump ship before said ship sinks
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Old 5th Mar 2016, 04:10   #139
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Originally Posted by Cei View Post
I can't believe how short sighted people are being on this. I swear it's bringing out the inner racist in vast swathes of the UK population, who can only think of "immigrants" as people who steal jobs and get up to no good. The immigration crisis in Europe isn't from people who just fancy a new job or some benefits, it's swathes of people who are running from oppressive regimes and harm to themselves. Circumstances that, ultimately, lie at the feet of countries like the UK. ISIS is a creation of Western policies (aka: wars) in the Middle East, and we have to accept that.

Last edited by seebul; 30th Nov 2016 at 21:50.
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Old 5th Mar 2016, 14:12   #140
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Cameron and the French trying to frighten us to stay in Europe by saying the Calais Jungle may have to be moved to Britain.
FFS WHY.
They are illegally in France it's there problem they let them in.
We set up borders to keep illegals out not let them in and decide wether we want them.
The border control agreement between us and France is just that, a private agreement and nothing to do with the EU.
Grow some balls Cameron and do what your paid to do, protect Britain, patrol our borders and make us a proud nation again.

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