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Old 19th Apr 2017, 22:34   #61
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Has nothing to do with anger, as I'm doing pretty well myself. For me it's an ideological battle really.

I hate the centralization that is the EU, it takes away the power of the people, who don't vote on anything that happens in Brussels. Even the national governments have too much power imho. I want to fundamentally decentralize the whole political system and make it more local and communal again.
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Old 19th Apr 2017, 22:50   #62
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Has nothing to do with anger, as I'm doing pretty well myself. For me it's an ideological battle really.

I hate the centralization that is the EU, it takes away the power of the people, who don't vote on anything that happens in Brussels. Even the national governments have too much power imho. I want to fundamentally decentralize the whole political system and make it more local and communal again.
Why not go back to wooden long ships and preventable disease while we're at it?

That'll make international trade and global progress in technology and science easier.
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Old 19th Apr 2017, 23:25   #63
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I'm not against trade or sharing knowledge either. I'm just against centralized government.

We can make trade-agreements like we had back in the ETC, but why should people in Brussels, that we don't directly elect, don't know and don't even share a language with have anything to say about how we do things in Finland.

And why do we need to open our borders to everyone? I and most other people had no problem with Visa (which we didn't even need back in the ETC for most of the current EU-countries to start with) or a little waiting at the border to get checked by customs. In return we had safer borders and had more knowledge about who entered our country.

Why do you people think that we can't have the one without the other? Are you really that narrowminded? Trading, sharing knowledge, travelling, etc, etc worked perfectly fine back in the ETC, while keeping our sovereignity.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 07:05   #64
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The 13 Finish MEPs your country elected would like a word with you about not sharing a language, after they've had a word the 9 representatives on the European Economic and Social Committee, Jyrki Katainen, Vice-President for Jobs, Growth, Investment and Competitiveness, the 9 representatives on the Committee of the Regions, and it's permanent representation in Brussels may want a word.

And while you're closing those borders to people is it OK if we also close the borders to all other resources, resources that businesses in Finland need.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 07:17   #65
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
I'm not against trade or sharing knowledge either. I'm just against centralized government.

We can make trade-agreements like we had back in the ETC, but why should people in Brussels, that we don't directly elect, don't know and don't even share a language with have anything to say about how we do things in Finland.

And why do we need to open our borders to everyone? I and most other people had no problem with Visa (which we didn't even need back in the ETC for most of the current EU-countries to start with) or a little waiting at the border to get checked by customs. In return we had safer borders and had more knowledge about who entered our country.

Why do you people think that we can't have the one without the other? Are you really that narrowminded? Trading, sharing knowledge, travelling, etc, etc worked perfectly fine back in the ETC, while keeping our sovereignity.
This.

Also, this.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 07:26   #66
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Something i read the other day is about pollsters having come to the realisation that they typical overestimated Labour and underestimated Conservatives, that got me wondering what if they've factored that in but gone to far the other way?
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 07:49   #67
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May will win by landslide is a feeling, labour has a unelectable leader and those polls where done before they relised the labour bias.

Can you imagine if Labour loses the north east where they are undisputed in. The party would fail.

May is doing this to try and get herself a huge majority and oust SNP all in one go.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 07:54   #68
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Everyone was saying Trump was unelectable and the polls have got it wrong before, not that I'm expecting anything but the Conservatives gaining seats, it's just i would laugh my A off if they did all get it wrong yet again.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 07:54   #69
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Has nothing to do with anger, as I'm doing pretty well myself. For me it's an ideological battle really.

I hate the centralization that is the EU, it takes away the power of the people, who don't vote on anything that happens in Brussels. Even the national governments have too much power imho. I want to fundamentally decentralize the whole political system and make it more local and communal again.
That's all pretty pastoral, but we don't live in that world anymore where individual villages and towns can run their own affairs at a local level. That could happen when the economy was local, not now we have large corporations spanning the whole world. All you do is give global corporations more power by fragmenting the 'power of the people'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
I'm not against trade or sharing knowledge either. I'm just against centralized government.

We can make trade-agreements like we had back in the ETC, but why should people in Brussels, that we don't directly elect, don't know and don't even share a language with have anything to say about how we do things in Finland.

And why do we need to open our borders to everyone? I and most other people had no problem with Visa (which we didn't even need back in the ETC for most of the current EU-countries to start with) or a little waiting at the border to get checked by customs. In return we had safer borders and had more knowledge about who entered our country.

Why do you people think that we can't have the one without the other? Are you really that narrowminded? Trading, sharing knowledge, travelling, etc, etc worked perfectly fine back in the ETC, while keeping our sovereignity.
Because the world has changed. It's not remotely like it was even twenty years ago, let alone the time of the ETC. The economy is global, and the only way countries can resist being exploited and commoditised is working together against that.

You need a framework for smooth trade and sharing knowledge, interests and activities. You need ground rules for cooperation, with jointly agreed standards, guidelines, aims and objectives; you need ground rules for communication, joint decision making and a shared system for governance, arbitration and conflict resolution. You can't just say: "Hey, let's all closely work together but remain sovereign at the same time". Those positions are mutually incompatible.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 09:44   #70
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Since SNP have been rattling cages about a 2nd referendum, I can see their share sliding now too as I think an even larger percentage will be dead against one.

Can't wait to see Wee Jimmy Krankie's face. Cannot bear the woman, nor her agenda.

Labour are also still in chaos and this will only further bury them. I think May's either been very brave or very clever...
I never understand why people not living in Scotland are so vehemently anti-SNP - it's kinda funny and annoying in equal measures. I can assure you it's a vastly different picture from this side of the fence, and dare I say it, it's possible to vote SNP even if you're not necessarily in favour of independence. Basically what bawjaws already said is what I'd say.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 10:03   #71
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I never understand why people not living in Scotland are so vehemently anti-SNP - it's kinda funny and annoying in equal measures. I can assure you it's a vastly different picture from this side of the fence, and dare I say it, it's possible to vote SNP even if you're not necessarily in favour of independence. Basically what bawjaws already said is what I'd say.
I live on this side of the fence though not a Scotsman and can see first hand the mess that the SNP have made up here not only as a government but as my local councillor. I despise Sturgeon who is akin to a dictator. When was the last time you heard a dissenting voice from either the Scottish government of the UL parliament MP's, the answer is never as having an opinion that differs from Sturgeons is a definite no no.
I for one am sick of the childish antics of the SNP in Westminster which is purely confrontational for confrontation sake and Sturgeons idea of diplomacy is her way or no way. As there is no credible opposition to the SNP up here unfortunately things will get far worse before they get better as no matter if Sturgeon gets her wish for independence it will not be enough.
on the subject of independence a spokesman for the SNP have said: "We have no intention of publishing the findings of the listening exercise on Scottish independence. Why?" No doubt the findings did not say what she wanted to hear.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 10:12   #72
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If you think Sturgeon is a dictator, wait until you get a load of May. By the way, how are those economic projections of different Brexit scenarios coming along? Did DexEU really just fail to make any, or did they not like the results?
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 10:22   #73
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By the way, how are those economic projections of different Brexit scenarios coming along?
Im pretty sure that were doing better than projected actually.

Stable inflation, record low levels of unemployment, High credit rating, GBP Sell moved to Buy on Tuesday...
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 10:29   #74
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Has nothing to do with anger...

...I hate the centralization that is the EU
O...Kay then.... - it seems you're already beyond fear and anger... next up comes the suffering....


On a side note, re. fear>anger>hate>suffering, back in 2005, when Revenge of the Sith was out, I saw a Star Wars poster, featuring a moody Anakin, in a Burger King window. I posed for a photo next to the poster, with the Burger King in shot too, and captioned it "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to Burger King" - I found it hilarious but none of my mates seemed to GAS
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 11:33   #75
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I think it's totally funny how people accept the status quo without ever asking themselves, if thats the best we can do for a political and economic system.
The systems clearly doesn't work that well anymore for a huge chunk of the population, which is the reason why things like Brexit and Trump happen.

We need to take a step back to a system that worked better for the people, i.e. abandon the idea of globalism and supranational government.
We need to think about things like a marxist economical system, where the workers have the control over their workplaces instead of the board of directors. We need a more direct democracy, where people are more involved through referendums. These things only work on a more localized level, where people identify as a part of the group. It's in our nature to think tribal.
We need a better educated public, which is the job of the schools to create critical thinkers and the job of the media to report actual facts. None of which is happening currently. Private schools or colleges that only the rich can afford, or that require people to rack up a huge amount of debt have to be done away with. Education should be a public good, offered totally free of cost to everyone, who is capable of participating.

Let's face it. Our current political system is not a democracy. It's a parliamentary dictatorship, where we get to elect the dictators every 4-5 years.
Our economic system is darwinism at it's best, where a small group accumulate all of the riches over time and everyone else is just fuel for the system.
Our school-systems don't create critical thinkers, but only working bees, who barely know enough to do their menial jobs. Most people don't have the slightest understanding of how the economy, the financial system or the political processes work. Because if they would know, there would be a revolution tomorrow.
Our media doesn't provide us with real facts anymore, but only with the POV that the elites wants us to see. We don't have a free media anymore.

The reason why I want to go back to the ETC is for a simple reason - to gain more control over whats happening, as we can only take control over our immediate surroundings.

That doesn't mean that I'm against cooperation on a supranational level however, as things like climate change can't be dealt with on a national level. However, these things need to be adressed via international treaties, and not supranational government.
Trade, travel, science etc can all be dealt with through international treaties, we don't need the EU for that. It worked before the EU just fine, but most of the people in here are probably too young to remember a time before the EU existed.
There was no shortage of goods in the 70s or 80s, there was no problems travelling from Finland to Spain by train and visiting all of the countries in between. And the list goes on.
We did things back then just the way we do them today, but we had more control over our economies and politics. We even had our own money, which was a huge advantage.

Bettering the system sometimes requires to turn around and start over again. Continuing a journey on a wrong path, just for the sake of going forward is idiotic and ultimately leads to demise. Look back in history and look at all these civilizations and empires that were set in their ways following the mantra of "forwards forever, backwards never ever". They all defeated themselves.
Be my guest, defeat yourselves, but don't blame it on people like me.

I'm getting tired of discussing these things over and over again with people too stubborn to even consider that their way might be headed in the wrong direction, but maybe I shouldn't care about it anymore, as I'm pretty much set for the future and allready had a good life. Farewell and good luck to you all o7
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 12:09   #76
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I find it funny how many people complain about "Brussels controlling everything", "unelected bureaucrats" etc, who clearly have not done cursory research into how the EU works but are damn sure they don't want it. Nigel Farage being an particularly humorous example, given that it is his job to do the the electing for the European Commission.

No, not funny. Depressing. that's the word.


As for anti-globalisation: it's akin to being anti-internet, anti-telecommunications, or anti-electricity. That's not a genie that can ever go back in the bottle.
We're even communicating right now over devices build in the far east, using technology developed in the US and EU (ARPAnet and CERN), quite likely powered by electricity from France. All that happens when you add taxation barriers to this is to add extra inefficiency to the system. If you're truly worried about 'corporations control everything' but think that extra skimming off the top is magically going to work its way back to you rather than them...
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 12:25   #77
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I think it's totally funny how people accept the status quo without ever asking themselves, if thats the best we can do for a political and economic system.
The systems clearly doesn't work that well anymore for a huge chunk of the population, which is the reason why things like Brexit and Trump happen.
I must be doing something wrong then as every time my car doesn't start on a cold winters morning i take a sledgehammer to it and all i end up with is a pile of bits and no car.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 14:10   #78
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I must be doing something wrong then as every time my car doesn't start on a cold winters morning i take a sledgehammer to it and all i end up with is a pile of bits and no car.
You have a Citroen too??


Sorry, that joke is wearing thin now...


Speaking of Sturgeon though, there was a hilarious clip on Sky news yesterday of her making this grand speech of "rallying at all costs to oust the Tories" (not a direct quote), then when asked if that meant potentially a coalition deal was like, "No we won't work with Labour or the Lib Dems because they suck balls too" (again, not a direct quote)... Who is she planning to work with then? Does she have knowledge of an imminent anti-Conservative Alien invasion??
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 15:09   #79
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I'd really love to be a fly on the wall during some of the internal discussions between some politicians.

I'm wondering if they do a version of 'durkadurka' or something.
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Old 20th Apr 2017, 15:20   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakka View Post
Speaking of Sturgeon though, there was a hilarious clip on Sky news yesterday of her making this grand speech of "rallying at all costs to oust the Tories" (not a direct quote), then when asked if that meant potentially a coalition deal was like, "No we won't work with Labour or the Lib Dems because they suck balls too" (again, not a direct quote)... Who is she planning to work with then? Does she have knowledge of an imminent anti-Conservative Alien invasion??
IIRC the LibDems and the Greens did/said similar...

Various variants of:

Party A: 'We need to work together...'
Party B: 'Work with Party A?... eww gross...'
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