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Stopped by the police - eventually

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Unicorn, 4 Feb 2012.

  1. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    I want this to stay in serious if it's all right with the mods. I definitly don't want it in GD where it will turn into a joking session, so if it's not ok that it stay in this subforum, please delete the thread.

    Tonight I was stopped by the police on my way home. They were driving an unmarked silver car, quite old - I'd say the oldest police vehicle I've seen on the road here since I started driving. It was an old Vectra. They had been following me for about 2 miles on both streetlit urban roads and small country roads, after I overtook them in a national speed limit zone. The whole time they were following me, they had their high beams on - I didn't see any flashing lights at all - the only flashing lights that were on the car were two small, dim turquoise lights in the front grill, but the full beam headlights were so bright that I didn't see those. I thought it was just some idiot that didn't know he was cutting the eyes out of the driver in front of him because he'd forgotten to dip his headlights. It gets worse... I also didn't hear the siren on the car, because I had the stereo on and turned up pretty loud. Anyway, I eventually realised that it was a police car and pulled over. I'll say it from the outset - I had been speeding.

    An officer opened my door and removed the keys from my ignition. The conversation was short and to the point, as I'm sure you can imagine. The regular questions were asked. Do you own this vehicle? (yes). Are you insured to drive this vehicle? (yes). Have you been drinking this evening? (No). Is there any reason for your excess speed? (I was in a big hurry). Where are you going? (To an office on the street where we had pulled in). What do you do? (I'm a freelance Electronic Engineer). Do you need your car for work? (Yes, I do call-outs or site work almost every day). Why didn't you stop? (I didn't realise the police were behind me, I didn't see the blue lights because they're quite dim and your full beams were on and I didn't hear the siren because I had the stereo turned up). And so on and so on.... The words "Interviewed about that", "Court" and "Dangerous driving" were mentioned.

    Anyway, they got back into their car to have a chat - 5-10 minutes later, they got out and one of them took some details from me - a home and mobile phone number and my schedule for the weekend. They are working nights and I am working tomorrow night, so we agreed on me having Sunday night free and they informed me that they will call me tomorrow evening to arrange a time to come in and be interviewed on Sunday night. I was also told that should I feel it necessary, I may have a solicitor present at this interview. I'm pretty concerned about this whole situation. I know that not stopping for the police is a serious offence, and it only gets worse when you add speeding and dangerous driving, not to mention my caution and fixed penalty fine from a few months ago. If I am banned from driving, I won't be able to work. I feel like an idiot, but to be honest, it's been a really, really bad few days for various reasons, and this is just yet another regret that I have. Right now I wish it was last Monday morning and I could go back and not do all the stupid stuff or make the stupid mistakes that I've made this week.

    Anyway, getting to the point - I know a couple of members of the forum are police officers and I'm hoping that some of the rest of you can provide some advice. What's my best move? I'm pretty certain that I have to admit to speeding and failing to stop for the police, but do I have a case in saying that I didn't know it was the police attempting to stop me? What, if any, sort of questions are they likely to ask me in the interview? I'm expecting to lose my license over this :rolleyes: And if I don't lose my license, I'm expecting at least the maximum number of points that can go on it that will still allow me to drive, and a massive fine.

    Thanks in advance for any help.
     
    Last edited: 4 Feb 2012
  2. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    While I can't say I know exactly how you feel, I'm sure most of us can imagine how crap it feels when a shitty few days are compounded by something else shitty and unexpected.

    Without knowing the finer details of what happened it's hard to give too much advice, and also, I'm an ex-copper, not an ex-solicitor, and I always tried to avoid the legal stuff.

    The best thing to do is to make sure you have a solicitor present. Obviously in ideal circumstances you'd have the money and the connections to get Mr. Hotshot Speeding Fine Dodger, but any legal advice is better than no legal advice, so at least have a duty (i.e. free) solicitor advise you. If you're going with the duty solicitor it might be an idea to let the police know in advance so that they can arrange for the solicitor to be at the station when you get there to avoid further delays, but don't count on this - the police may want to wait to confirm you've shown up before they call for a duty solicitor.

    You've got a genuine mitigation for not stopping, so don't forget and make sure you make that point comprehensively. By the sounds of it no-one was hurt, no property was damaged and you weren't under the influence of drugs or alcohol so all of that will be in your favour when it comes to any decisions the police, CPS and court make. Obviously, if you were well over the speed limit there's a case to answer, but were you doing anything else dangerous?

    You don't want to be lying about anything, but at the same time you probably don't want to be admitting to anything that isn't indisputable.

    If you were only slightly over the limit and not doing anything dangerous but just failing to stop for an unmarked car then I wouldn't have thought you would get hit too hard, but there's no guarantees of course.

    If you're sure the headlights were on full beam then you can obviously try and gain some advantage from this - if you were being dazzled you might have felt intimidated and under pressure to drive outside of your normal habits, but if your behaviour was clearly independent of this issue then obviously you don't want to make too much of it.

    You also want to make it clear that your livelihood is dependent on being able to drive.

    Good luck.
     
    boiled_elephant likes this.
  3. lysaer

    lysaer Suck my unit! Kirk lazarus (2008)

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    Do you have a solicitor? If not I would recommend Nick freeman, he doesn't come cheap, but in the face of losing your license it can be worth it.

    I used him about 5 years ago to get me out of losing my license, he got me off but it cost me 4 grand.
     
  4. TheStockBroker

    TheStockBroker Modder

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    I really wish I wasn't so tired and cold reply to this properly, but in short - don't admit to anything, don't be afraid to go to court. Do not fall for the age-old trick of them pressuring you into a confession of any sorts.

    The reality is, the police are tied up in so much bureaucratic red-tape, that given the scenario as described they will probably have to drop the charges...

    If you weren't under caution when questioned at the roadside, anything you say later on can conflict safely (other than ownership and insurance question responses as according to Code C S10 of PACE) . i.e that you never admitted to speeding, and that the officer must have misunderstood... That in mind, get yourself a dreary duty solicitor if you're really browning your trousers - but otherwise prepare to go and have your time thoroughly wasted.

    When there, and in formal interview:

    Make clear you are present as requested and arranged of your own volition. State you would like a copy of any recordings they are making. If there is not one being taken, ask for one.

    Bring with you, and provide to the interviewing officers your documentation. Do this whether it is asked for or not. State that you provide it for the sake of completeness and accuracy of the investigative records, and not as an admission of any offence, omission or breach of duty of care.

    Done, specifically ask for a hard copy of the documentation of:

    • The nature and circumstances of the suspected offence
    • The reason why the stop was necessary
    • Whether or not a caution was given
    • Anything said by all parties at the time of the stop

    The police are required to properly record these at the time of any incident. Chances are, they won't have anything other than a few scribbles in a pocketbook.

    Using your judgement, gauge whether this has thrown them off-balance sufficiently to ask them whether you are under arrest.

    If they have not already detailed, ask why they believed the offence of speeding had been committed. Whatever their response, ask for a copy of the most recent calibration certificate of the device: lidar/radar/speedometer and ask for a copy of the specification sheet and handbook/manual describing normal operating procedure for that device.

    Ask if there is any other (airquotes) "evidence" supporting the stop.

    At this time, you are still not under arrest. Excuse yourself and ask for all the above documentation to be served to you at a given address within 28 days.

    Walk out like a boss. Await results.

    If they still want to pursue the case, then take it on. Use what you've acquired against them. if things were really as you say, it's almost impossible to lose.
     
    SuicideNeil likes this.
  5. Zener Diode

    Zener Diode User Title

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    If you didn't know they were trying to pull you over then you didn't know, you're not to blame for that unless it was a result of not paying adequate attention. I assume that you were within the limit while they were following you. If so, are they claiming that you tried to outrun them within the speed limit? That's a bit silly. Provided you weren't heading for the border and you weren't trying to outrun them, I don't see any big crime.

    You could go back to the scene with one of the officers in your car and demonstrate what you saw.
     
  6. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/investigation/witness-questioning.htm

    Interview under caution, huh? Well, the purpose of that is to figure out if they can prosecute - and from your story it sounds like they could be partly culpable for blinding you with their headlights for 2 miles (only speeding to get away from the high beams perhaps?)

    Explain this to the duty solicitor ;)

    EDIT: And yes, that link is to the Health & Safety Exec, but interview process is, more or less, standard across enforcement bodies
     
  7. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Thanks for a very helpful reply Porkins' - One thing that I left out in the haste of writing that post: I had my fog lamps on (they knew this because I was behind them at one point) and they did mention this to me. One of them used the word "unlucky" in an extremely sarcastic way after listing the offences that they had observed and questioning me about not stopping, Which I thought was a bit uncalled for.

    I don't think we have Duty solicitors available here in Northern Ireland, although I'm not certain about that. I'll have to look into it tomorrow.

    Lysaer - No, the interview will be conducted and recorded at the local police station. They were making arrangements for a suitable time for me to come in. Sorry if that was unclear.

    This isn't all that far from the truth. After I overtook them on the main road and pulled onto the back road, this was pretty much the reason for me continuing to drive fast. I know the road more than well, but I don't normally drive on it that fast. It's a narrow country road, only wide enough for one car so you have to stop if you meet anything. I was never doing more than 55 on that road, but I passed the police car on the main road at about 70, and was doing 60+ on the main road that I pulled out onto off the country road.

    In short, it went like this:

    -Silver car driving slowly (50mph) on main road
    -I overtake, hit 70 for a moment and slow down to turn, car now behind me high beams me
    -Car turns in and follows me, high beams still on, they dipped their lights a couple of times and flashed the high beams at me, then went back to high beams fully on. At this point I tilted my internal anti-glare mirror because it was blinding me
    -I keep driving, turn out onto other main road, head down that road pretty fast because it's a nice wide road with smooth bends
    -I pulled into a side road on this road to reach over to the passengers footwell and lift my phone that had slid off the seat. Was only pulled in for a moment, pull back out again
    -Silver car has caught up to me again, I untilt my mirror, look at it more closely in the streetlights as we've driven back into a streetlit area
    - See that it's a police car, pull into a side road/industrial estate entrance immediately, stop the car and turn off the engine

    Might be worth noting - when the officer asked me to get out of my car and look at the blue lights on the front of his vehicle, I noticed he had a sidelight out. Not sure if that's relevant, but I noticed it nonetheless.

    [edit]

    Oh, I've been ninja'd a couple of times there - was playing a game of Halo in between writing and submitting the replies. Thanks for all the advice so far chaps. What's the technical term (if any) for the way that newer police car headlights alternate when their pursuit lights and siren are on? Is it just alternating headlamps? That combined with the dim turquoise (and I do mean that colour, not police blue) are the main reasons why I never once thought that it was a police vehicle. And I never assumed that it was a police vehicle before overtaking it on the main road because it was so old and run down looking. All the unmarked police sedans I've ever seen around here have been newer models than this one.
     
    Last edited: 4 Feb 2012
  8. Guest-16

    Guest-16 Guest

    Echo soliciters points:

    Admit nothing - they are not on your side. You weren't speeding excessively until they can prove it.
    Get a solicitor
    You have a good case.
     
  9. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    But it's their word against mine - I mean, how are any speeding fines or penalties issued without proof when the "gun" resets itself after 5 minutes or something like that? They were following me and so they know what speed I was doing on the small road, and obviously they know that I overtook them on the main road. Two police officers' word against a driver who didn't stop for the the police for two miles. Do I really have a good case?

    How does one go about contacting a duty solicitor?

    [edit]

    I have a membership with the FSB and just called their legal advice team - They recommended that I take along a solicitor of some sort and said that the necessary evidence for traffic offences works roughly like this:

    - Written testimony of two police officers
    - Written testimony of one officer and a witness
    - Written testimony of one officer and CCTV or other video footage
    - Written testimony of one officer and a readout or printout from speed detection equipment

    Obviously the first one applies to me. Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: 4 Feb 2012
  10. KidMod-Southpaw

    KidMod-Southpaw Super Spamming Saiyan

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    I obviously can't give any advice here, but that really sucks. :(
    The buggers need to be able to have the blue lights showing. Just don't admit to anything.
     
  11. Ljs

    Ljs Modder

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    I honestly don't think you will lose your license. As much as they want to 'uphold the law', no court would want to see someone lose their livelyhood from a speeding infraction.

    I actually have a female friend who got off a speeding fine for the same thing. She claimed that the bright lights and car driving up her arse scared her into speeding and not pulling over straight away - she walked away without a ticket.
     
  12. mucgoo

    mucgoo Minimodder

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    That would be the evidence required for a speeding offence. I'm guessing if you had of stopped immediately you'd of got a telling of and a penalty notice on your door a few days later with the first point being sufficient.

    Instead you've got a speeding offence from the overtake but from then on its a more complicated mix failure to stop and speeding both which can be attributed to the high beam dazzling you experienced. The more serious is failure to stop and a court will be needed to decided that matter. It will hopefully be decided its not worth the hassle and the expense.
     
  13. TheStockBroker

    TheStockBroker Modder

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    You're a smart guy Unicorn, c'mon! Sure, these are the necessary criteria for "evidence" for the police to reasonably charge you with said offence - but whether that "evidence" is considered acceptable/appropriate/reliable is down to a judge, who is required to also take into account your own findings. Like I said before, don't be afraid to go to court to contest this. Do not just admit that x y z. Turn up to the hearing, if it even gets that far, and bully the underprepared, overworked second-rate CPS lawyer into submission!

    I've done this three times now, and it's just gotten easier every time... You're a nice guy - I don't want to see you fall prey to social conformity and accept what does not need to be accepted!
     
    walle likes this.
  14. Carrie

    Carrie Multimodder

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    Sorry to hear of your troubles Matt.

    The only constructive thing I can say is make sure you're well prepared and have thought out what you going to say and the scope of what you are or are not prepared to say or admit to. The better prepared you are the less flustered you'll be so the less likely you are to say something you might regret later.

    Best of luck!
     
  15. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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  16. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    How did it go, Uni?
     
  17. Fishlock

    Fishlock .o0o.

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    Some shockingly inaccurate advice given on here, but that's by the by. From what you've explained, it seems that you have nothing to answer for, except the speeding. When you explained that you didn't see the blue lights at the roadside, did he record it and ask you to sign it? They absolutely should have done and that is immediately your defence. Failing to stops like this with unmarked cars happen all the time, I'd be amazed if it gets anywhere near a charge. In terms of the speeding, did they have a capture camera in the car? Did you admit speeding at the roadside and if so, did they record that admission and did you sign it?

    Why do you expect to lose your licence? How many points do you already have and what are they for?
     
  18. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    ... and did they show you [or did you ask to see] the footage? IIRC they have to show you any on-board camera footage of any 'incident'. Also no footage = no evidence, 'their word' isn't good enough.*

    * note I don't drive so i have no first-hand knowledge. I'm simply going from what a friend of mine [who has been stopped for speeding *many* times] has told me.
     
  19. Atomic

    Atomic Gerwaff

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    Wrong and wrong.

    They don't have to show you the footage. Also the word of (in this instance) two Police Officers that you were speeding is admissible in court.
     
  20. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    I’m hoping you’re right about the livelihood thing – you have no idea how screwed I am if I can’t drive. You can’t fit very much site equipment in a case to carry on the bus...
    Thanks for chipping in – I hope you’re right. Hopefully the red tape and the hassle of arguing the point after I present my own side of the story will mean it doesn’t make it to a second court appearance. I will probably have to appear in court at least once, will find that out later this week.
    AFAIK, I won’t have a choice but to go to court and defend my corner. I don’t see that I have a say in the matter. I think they’ll want to see me standing in court to answer for the second speeding offence in 6 months and also to explain the failure to stop.
    Thanks Carrie – I’m sorting out a Solicitor this week and will be sitting down with him/her to discuss what approach to take with the interview. I’ll also be taking them along to make sure none of the questions are unreasonable and none of my simple rights are refused.
    Thanks for the link there – I tried contacting the local CAB at the weekend but they were closed, also closed when I rang them at lunch time today. I’m going to go in tomorrow and ask for their advice on a duty Solicitor or a local defence solicitor. Our family and business Solicitor does not deal with traffic offences or anything like that, otherwise I’d have him handling it.

    The Constable rang me on Saturday night and asked if Sunday still suited to “come in and discuss what happened last night”. I explained that I was still trying to arrange a Solicitor to come to the interview with me and that it would be the middle-end of the week before I was prepared to be interviewed. He said there was no problem with this and that he would call me again on Wednesday or Thursday evening to arrange it. So at the moment, nothing more has happened with it.
    Thanks for offering some advice. I appreciate all the opinions and advice I can get from here or anywhere, but if you think there has been some inaccurate advice given so far, please feel free to PM me to explain what exactly was wrong and correct it – Last thing I want is to be considering inaccurate advice to be true.
    I’ll answer your questions as best as I can:
    - He recorded nothing at the roadside except my registration number, the registered owner of the car, my home and mobile numbers and my home address. I signed nothing and I was asked no questions in a formal manner. When he showed me the blue lights I said that I hadn’t seen them until they were right on my bumper a moment before I pulled over, because all that I could see were the dazzling full beam (HID, I believe) headlamps.
    - I don’t believe there was a capture camera in the car. As I’ve mentioned before, it was a pretty old car and certainly the oldest unmarked police vehicle I’ve seen around here. It didn’t even have an alternating headlamp relay circuit, and as far as I understand it, very few police cars here have in-car cameras to begin with, so I doubt that this car in particular had a camera.
    - I don’t honestly remember admitting to speeding – they gave me a serious warning before letting me drive off, basically saying “you need to slow down or we may not be talking in the future, you may end up seriously injured or dead” to which I replied by nodding and saying “ok, no problem”. So in terms of them asking directly “were you speeding?” and me saying “Yes, I was” then that didn’t happen, and again I didn’t sign any statement to admit that I had been speeding.

    As I’ve said, I don’t think there is any footage, but if there is and they show me it during the interview, then I end up looking stupid because they have it on a screen in front of me and that’s all the evidence they need to charge me. The serious issues here are the fact that there are 3 or 4 “causes for serious concern” for the two officers – The fact that I overtook them on the main road at a speed in excess of the limit, the fact that I failed to stop for the police vehicle when indicated and “appeared” to be evading the police, the fact that during this, I continued to speed on a narrow, winding country road and the fact that I was driving on a clear night with my front fog lights on. What they make of all that in terms of turning it into charges to bring me to court over, is entirely dependent on how much hard evidence they have against me and how my interview goes later in the week.
     

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