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Old Yesterday, 16:37   #7141
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Its 1 thing favouring that candidate and another to come outright, especially in a separate countries national election and declaring it. The EC spokesman is blowing hot air about justification over interference; bear in mind the comments made regarding Putin's support for trump
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Old Yesterday, 16:42   #7142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Although i do find it strange how people get so worked up by what Jean-Claude Juncker or any President of the European Commission says as they have no powers, just like Sir Jeremy Heywood, all they do is propose legislation, implement decisions, and uphold rules, regulation, and laws.
Except the powers to decide:
  • Organisation of the Commission
  • Allocate portfolios
  • Make changes to the commission at any time
  • Commission's policy agenda
  • Defend the general European interest

And then the commission can decide:
  • Economic & Monetary Union Policies
  • Migration Policy
  • Etc

So, he can pick and choose the 28 members of an unelected body who cannot be held to account.. Sounds pretty powerless to me too ...
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Old Yesterday, 17:08   #7143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mankz View Post
So, he can pick and choose the 28 members of an unelected body
Just clearing up a few inaccuracies (with 2 minutes of googling).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia: European Commission
[...] The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia: Council of the European Union
[...] often still referred to as the Council of Ministers [...] represents the executive governments of the EU's member states. [...] The Council meets in 10 different configurations of 28 national ministers (one per state). The precise membership of these configurations varies according to the topic under consideration; for example, when discussing agricultural policy the Council is formed by the 28 national ministers whose portfolio includes this policy area (with the related European Commissioners contributing but not voting).
TL;DR
- Junker doesn't pick.
- Members of the council are only unelected in the same way your ministers are (you elect them indirectly). The government you voted for in your national general election puts them forward. Seems fair to me.
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Old Yesterday, 18:08   #7144
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The European Commission is the `government` of the EU, with 28 members (one per state) and 1 is nominated for the office of president , who is then elected by all the MEP`s. Further, the EC memebrs are sworn to uphold the values of the EU , above and beyond (and even in conflict with) the interests of their home countries.

If you anyone is interested - the EC is the `civil service` of the EU - an organisation in any country above the political machinations , and yet on his acceptance speech in 2014 Junkers promised
Quote:
In a speech to MEPs, he pledged the Commission would be a "political body", not just Europe's civil service.
This is unprecedented in world politics.
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Old Yesterday, 18:46   #7145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
givn he has never done it before - this is a break of protocol; also a spokesman has said the EU and EC have tools available to correct `facts as necessary - that beggers the question, in this age of Post Truth - who`s facts are they...
Where did you get the idea he, or the commission, have never done it before, he congratulated Trump, Nursultan Nazarbayev, Jüri Ratas, Hashim Thaçi, the list goes on and on, it's not even like it's never happened with the French elections as the EU commission congratulated Francois Hollande for winning in 2012 and he wasn't exactly a pro EU candidate.

And TBH it's about time people took action to correct facts as, like you say, in this post truth world there's far to much misinformation being trotted out by the likes of Farage and others who use disinformation and propaganda for further their own agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mankz View Post
Except the powers to decide:
  • Organisation of the Commission
  • Allocate portfolios
  • Make changes to the commission at any time
  • Commission's policy agenda
  • Defend the general European interest

And then the commission can decide:
  • Economic & Monetary Union Policies
  • Migration Policy
  • Etc

So, he can pick and choose the 28 members of an unelected body who cannot be held to account.. Sounds pretty powerless to me too ...
Not that i can be bothered to research everyone of those things you list as i had guessed you would disagree, mainly because i suspected you don't know, like it seems many people, how the EU commission works.

Everything (AFAIK) that comes from the commission is voted on by the 27 council members, in case it's not clear the commission proposes and implements what the head of the 27 nations have made a decision on or about.

Just like our own civil service does with our own Ministers, MP's don't have the time to write everything themselves so they tell the civil service what they want and the civil service make 2-3 proposals for the minister to read through, make changes if need be, and eventually sign off on.

The EU Commission and our own civil service are no different than a secretary who works for a CEO.

Last edited by Corky42; Yesterday at 19:08.
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Old Yesterday, 19:28   #7146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
The European Commission is the `government` of the EU, with 28 members (one per state) and 1 is nominated for the office of president , who is then elected by all the MEP`s. Further, the EC memebrs are sworn to uphold the values of the EU , above and beyond (and even in conflict with) the interests of their home countries.
When you work together as an integrated team you have to agree on standards, rules and regulations, how to implement and enforce them and how to resolve conflict and disagreement. You may not always get your way and occasionally you will have to subjugate your interests to those of the group. It's called co-operation.
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Old Yesterday, 19:40   #7147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Not that i can be bothered to research everyone of those things you list as i had guessed you would disagree, mainly because i suspected you don't know, like it seems many people, how the EU commission works.
I'll do that for you: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/comm...2019/president
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Old Yesterday, 20:12   #7148
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As for `facts - good facts or real facts? both are being used by all sides to support an arguement
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Old Yesterday, 20:43   #7149
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Go watch some interviews with Janis Varoufakis and listen to what he has to say about the workings of the EU commission. They're not bound by anything and usually do what is in the best interest of the rich elites.
That's how Greece got forced to implement the dreadful austerity measures in partnership with the IMF, who seves the same rich elites.

Aslong as we don't change the system to one that's much more controlled by the people and give free reign to whoever we elect for long periods of time, aslong we won't have governments that actually act in our favour.
And the same can be said about the economic system aswell, which is basically still a relationship of masters and serves (employers and employees) and not really different to feudalism.

Anyways...

Most people in the western industrialized countries are still too well off to change anything and aslong as they can keep on consuming and maintain their standard of living they're happy puppets.
The same people just as happily forget about the billions of people that have to suffer so that we can keep up our standards of living. We rip half the world off of their ressources, so that we can consume them at the lowest price possible. And alot of us wonder why so many people out of these countries come to us as refugees. War plays a minor role in this really.
Alot of the ressources are running out faster and faster tho, as more and more people in the developing countries raise their standards of living and also start consuming all the stuff we are used to. When the cheap ressources finally run out, I sure don't want to be living in any major european or american city and be as self-sufficient as possible, which is not really easy to do, especially in terms of energy in a country where half the year the sun don't shine. And current technology isn't up to the task yet.

The shlt will hit the fan in the coming decades, most definately within my remaining lifetime and our current political and economical systems are not equipped to deal with it.
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Old Yesterday, 21:42   #7150
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Although I agree with a lot of what you say, I think that you keep looking at the problem from the wrong end.

You keep thinking that the problem lies with big corporations, big governments and the wealthy elite, and that if only the common people would have political power it would all be OK. Nope. The situation exists as it does now because the common people allow it. They even want it. Demand it. Vote for it. The level of insight, wisdom, self-discipline and engagement that you presume is not sufficiently present in the electorate.
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Old Yesterday, 22:03   #7151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mankz View Post
Except the powers to decide:
  • Organisation of the Commission
  • Allocate portfolios
  • Make changes to the commission at any time
  • Commission's policy agenda
  • Defend the general European interest

And then the commission can decide:
  • Economic & Monetary Union Policies
  • Migration Policy
  • Etc

So, he can pick and choose the 28 members of an unelected body who cannot be held to account.. Sounds pretty powerless to me too ...
How is that different from the UKs own political system?

You vote for whoever you want to be MP / MEP, then they go and do whatever they want for a couple of years, then you get a choice to either vote for them again or vote for someone else, rinse repeat a few years later.

And if it comes to accountability there is no difference either, if Sturgeon sturgeons all over Scotland then someone in lets say Cardiff gets to do what about it? Exactly nothing. The exact same thing happens if you vehemently disagree with what some Italian MEP does, there is nothing you can do about it either.

Plus if you want to talk about accountability of politicians, fine with me, why don't you provide the number of UK politicians who are in jail for fiddling expenses? Or explain what you can do to stop MPs from excluding themselves from laws they pass like they did when they forced ISPs to store data from everyone who isn't a politician.

And when it comes to unelected people getting to decide then the UK is exhibit A among first world countries, or have you forgotten the House of Lords?

Point is that the EU is no less democratic than the UK.

And no, that is not an endorsement for the political system in either the UK or the EU.
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Old Yesterday, 22:10   #7152
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Although I agree with a lot of what you say, I think that you keep looking at the problem from the wrong end.

You keep thinking that the problem lies with big corporations, big governments and the wealthy elite, and that if only the common people would have political power it would all be OK. Nope. The situation exists as it does now because the common people allow it. They even want it. Demand it. Vote for it. The level of insight, wisdom, self-discipline and engagement that you presume is not sufficiently present in the electorate.
Let me translate this...

The majority of people is simply too stoopid for us to live in a better world.
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Old Yesterday, 23:10   #7153
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People are the reason why we can't have nice things.
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Old Today, 07:17   #7154
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What does posting a link to a site that gives a job description of the president of the Commission have to do with your lack of understanding what the job of a secretary entails?

Although as i see you're struggling to understand what you've read let me break it down for you.

Organisation of the Commission: Well i would hope the chief secretary is given the powers to organise the secretarial department as he sees fit as he would be a pretty useless department head if he couldn't

Allocate portfolios: I would also hope the head of the secretarial department would be given the powers to assign portfolios to individual secretaries as not having heads of the different secretarial department would create an awful mess.

Make changes to the commission at any time: See above, if you can't run the department you've been put in charge of as you see fit what's the point in being the departments head.

Commission's policy agenda: Are you starting to see a picture hear, not being able to set the secretarial departments policy agenda would leave everyone in the secretarial department not knowing what they're meant to be doing.

Defend the general European interest: What you mean like the head of a secretarial department would be tasked with defending the general interests of the company their working for.

Economic & Monetary Union Policies: Would that be the Economic & Monetary Union Policies that have been agreed upon by the 27 heads of state in a democratic vote, The Five Presidents' Report that the elected heads of the 27 nations decided to task the head of a secretarial department with carry out.

Migration Policy: See above only without The Five Presidents' Report, i dare say even you can cast you mind back to when the the 27 elected heads of member states held an emergency meeting to discuss the crisis with migrants crossing the Mediterranean, well funnily enough they actually agreed on how to tackle that, just like they've held meetings on all matters to do with EU wide migration policies and when they came to an agreement on what to do that was give to the head of the secretarial department to carry out.

After having gone into further details I'm left wondering why you, and i would guess many others, didn't know how the EU commission works, I'm left wondering if people who voted in the EU referendum where uninformed about the decision they made, that the misinformation being trotted out by the likes of Farage and others has been accepted as fact hook line and sinker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
As for `facts - good facts or real facts? both are being used by all sides to support an arguement
Well you only have to look at the facts that I've had to explain to Mankz to understand the difference, there's not a good or real facts, there's only objective facts and objective falsehoods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Let me translate this...

The majority of people is simply too stoopid for us to live in a better world.
I would say it's more a case of the majority of people being to happy/comfortable with their live.

Isn't there a idiom that says something like only having to keep 51% of the people happy, only in the UK because of our dumb voting system that's more like 25-30%

Last edited by Corky42; Today at 09:17. Reason: Bad speeling
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Old Today, 12:38   #7155
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one person falsehood is another persons fact - its down to perception
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