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Old 17th Feb 2017, 17:27   #5941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartpb View Post
As said Nexxo, I never voted, I don't disagree with some of the points you make. I do accept the leave campaign was full of hot air and promises that couldn't be kept, but I got the same feeling with the remain camp plenty of times too. Take their stance on immigration for example. They acknowledged that the current system needed revising but they failed to share how that could be achieved other than it's easier from within and they would deal with it. They also never put forth exactly what revisions they would be seeking. It sounded to me like they had just as much foresight and planning as the leave campaign, very little other than let's stick to what we know, which wasn't cutting it for me as I'm a long term Euro Skeptic.
The Remain campaign made a poor show of it, but that should not factor much in your deliberations. You knew what being in the EU looks like. What you should have been asking yourself is: what do we know will being outside of the EU look like? What sources of information can we trust?

Not the Leave campaigners: they are biased and they don't actually have to deliver on whatever they promise, so there is nothing to hold them to account. They can say whatever they want with impunity. And if it all sounds wonderful and simple, it is probably a lie.

The Remain campaigners were largely the government, so they would be held to account for whatever they said. This is why their arguments sounded a bit lacklustre: the truth is messy, complicated and big promises tend to be hard to deliver on and full of caveats and reservations.

As I said: lies always sound better than the truth. Lies make better stories. In a debate between lies and truth, lies will always win over the public; engage it more, excite it more, make it feel better than the truth will. This is why, in a debate, it is important to consider proof and evidence, examine the logic and reasoning behind statements and above all be on your guard for rhetorical tricks that appeal to emotion and subjective reasoning bias (which is what we are doing here in this thread, also).

If people can't do that, then democracy is not a suitable system of government for them. And indeed history shows that those who can't handle democracy will choose dictatorship instead, and come to regret it.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 18:27   #5942
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Originally Posted by stuartpb View Post
Go forth and multiply, pretty much all I have to say to you matey
That's the sort of answer I've come to expect from Euro Skeptic's TBH.

And you wonder why people stereotype them as uneducated when typically they respond like you have at simple requests to provide the evidence that they based their opinion.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 18:43   #5943
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
That's the sort of answer I've come to expect from Euro Skeptic's TBH.

And you wonder why people stereotype them as uneducated when typically they respond like you have at simple requests to provide the evidence that they based their opinion.
Glad I didn't disappoint. It's people like you who I try to avoid like the plague. Argumentative and self righteous comes to mind.


So how about we agree to disagree and move on with our lives, you aren't getting what you want from me and I can't be arsed trying to point score with someone I will never have the pleasure of meeting in the real world. I'm up for basically ignoring each other it if you are It's the way forward!!
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 18:48   #5944
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Both of you need to settle down a bit before you get some enforced away time from the forums. By all means have a respectful and informed discussion, even disagreement, but name calling and the like needs to stay elsewhere ta

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Old 17th Feb 2017, 18:59   #5945
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No worries and for my part I do apologise.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 20:19   #5946
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To be honest. I didn't like that one bit. Stuart is having a quick break.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 20:32   #5947
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It's nice to see consistency in the moderation, as well as see another moderator move in and 'overrule' another moderator by banning stuartpb, even after he came out and apologized. I can understand his frustration, he had 4-5 members 'ganging' up on him and he couldn't keep his cool. It happens.

Nonsense like this makes me miss Nexxo as a moderator.

In other news.
You've had your referendum.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 20:50   #5948
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The referendum is only the point at which things began to get interesting. Their leaving will be quite the spectacle.

I respect people like yourself and Disequillibria who I fundamentally disagree with on most levels but can still argue the points. If we let people away with puerile name calling the forum would eventually become degenerate or sterilised of any conversation beyond waiting for something truly interesting to appear in the PC space (What's your favourite RGB combination)

Infighting among the mods is Dogbert's problem.

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Old 17th Feb 2017, 20:51   #5949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
he had 4-5 members 'ganging' up on him
The first actual proper post that stuartpb made in this thread was to accuse Nexxo - and many others in this thread - of being patronising for using the word "poor".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartpb View Post
I'm sure the "poor" will manage just fine without your compassion and care. Just how patronising can you go exactly? Some of the "poor" (that's a term I find offensive when used in the context you have throughout this thread) voted to leave because they are disenfranchised with politics, not through their own ignorance but because they've been the ones bearing the brunt of political choices, faced stigmatisation through the media, our own politicians and many of the "elite" here in the UK. Some of the "poor" voted because EU policies have had a direct impact on their lives. It isn't all great being EU members and there certainly are problems with it.

I think we were given a choice, a pretty simple one; do we have faith that the problems with the EU can be rectified, or do we give up our membership and forge our own path? I do cede the point that the brexit campaigners didn't have a clue what Brexit would actually mean, but in the same breath all we got from the remain campaigners was loose promises that the problems could be fixed. It was hardly going to convince Euro sceptics to vote remain. Want to apportion blame, then blame the remain camp too, they couldn't sell chips to a hungry man!!

You've got a choice Nexxo, accept we're leaving the EU on the terms that will be decided and agreed on, or look at emigrating. Deal with it and move on. Simples.
He was then challenged to back up his assertions - repeatedly - and failed to adequately do so. This is a 298-page thread and it's fair to say that many of the same arguments over the last 5 pages have already been done to death. When we've already had these arguments many... many times over in this thread, that's not an unreasonable challenge.

Perhaps mods could have handled it better and not publicly disagreed with each other in the thread, but hey - "free speech" means that people are free to show you the door when they don't like what you're saying. After all, this forum isn't a public service institution.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 21:43   #5950
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In all honesty i'd probably have nuked this thing from orbit ages ago.

It's at least 100 pages of:



It's stopped being about any meaningful discussion [if it ever actually was] and is now just about the argument.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 21:50   #5951
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I think we're about to find that Brexit be like:



Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
You've had your referendum.
Apparently not quite.

And LOL at:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartpb View Post
I think we were given a choice, a pretty simple one; do we have faith that the problems with the EU can be rectified, or do we give up our membership and forge our own path?
As if the poor will now suddenly have a say in where the UK goes next.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 23:18   #5952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFlames View Post
It's stopped being about any meaningful discussion [if it ever actually was] and is now just about the argument.
There is currently just no real news about it to discuss as we are in the gap between the Supreme Court ruling and the triggering of Article 50.

But as a topic overall? Years to go.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 23:29   #5953
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Well, there's the bill having to pass through the House of Lords, who may vote in their own amendments, and the latest update that legal experts (yeah, those again) have just advised government that parliament must pass a second Brexit act once negotiations are complete, to make Brexit happen.

This would suggest that if parliament is not happy with the negotiated deal, they can call Brexit off, which means Article 50 can be revoked. Which will make for some interesting viewing if the Brexit deal the government managed to negotiate turns out to be spectacularly poor.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 00:40   #5954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
It's nice to see consistency in the moderation, as well as see another moderator move in and 'overrule' another moderator by banning stuartpb, even after he came out and apologized. I can understand his frustration, he had 4-5 members 'ganging' up on him and he couldn't keep his cool. It happens.

Nonsense like this makes me miss Nexxo as a moderator.

In other news.
You've had your referendum.
I hadn't actually seen George's response, only Stuarts comment, which was more than enough for me. If you can't keep your cool then simply don't post in that thread.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 01:47   #5955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
It's either about stalling or not stalling, this gives them an out as well I guess.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 10:17   #5956
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It's a reflection of the fact that you don't just nix 40+ years of cumulative international treaties that are firmly entangled with the law and economy of a nation without having to go through due process. Something that the Brexiteers had 20 years to figure out but somehow couldn't be bothered to.

I think that this reflects their thinking process on the whole issue. All unicorns, no reality.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 10:43   #5957
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Do we know if the EU has decided yet if article 50 can be revoked once triggered, i know there was some talk (wasn't the EU courts going to decide) about it within the EU but I've not heard anything since.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 11:06   #5958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Well obviously the result of whatever May negotiates with the EU must get parliamentary approval.
That is just the most basic level of common sense.

Problem is what happens if parliament rejects the negotiated agreement?

Extending the 2 year dead line to give May time to try again would require unanimous agreement from the EU member states.
Even if that happened the General Election would get in the way.
Any attempt to reverse the triggering of Article 50 would most likely end up at the ECJ and the current political landscape in the UK rules out asking the ECJ for anything.

So the bitter reality is that parliament will be held hostage and have to say yes no matter what she negotiates, because the only alternative would then be to leave without any agreement at all.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 11:38   #5959
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If Article 50 can be revoked (and the author says it can), then parliament could back out of Brexit if the negotiated deal is perceived to be disastrous. Especially if public opinion has swayed the other way, which it has started to already (if only because the older Leave voters are dying).

I think that the EU-27 would also be happy to welcome the UK back into the fold. Whether the UK crashes into disaster or pedals back, it would prove either way the EU's point about leaving being a bad idea.

The UK economy is just starting to hit the Brexit slowdown, so the next months will tell.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 11:41   #5960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartpb View Post
I agree with the above. I don't agree with the previous statement you made. You don't have a clue where we will be in 10 years or even 5.

Credit due, certainly has a damn good go at dictating the present, Assumes he knows the future based on the information he can aquire in the present, but has complete ignorance towards the past.


The Roman Empire had the same perspective and look where they ended up.
People seem to forget the political EU is on a single track to fail (long before Brexit), like Rome, in ignorance, big time.
It will be up to the Nation states to solve EU failings and repair the damage, Likewise, uphold the things it got right.
But here it seems easier to just keep harbringing the doom of Brexit with all the assumptions, While Rome burns realtime.

I have never seen such pessimism, Everytime I pop back on here it's the same old internet-link **** throwing fest of negativity and left wing bullying.
We are leaving a failing empire, The kid next door has picked up the discarded rattle and is going to have more fun playing with it than the previous owner did. Legally. Get over It.

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