Syrian Massacre

[3lusive]

That wasn't the case in West Yorkshire though, according to police figures, so why whould it be the case for the rest of the country?

[specofdust]

Sorry, was that aimed at me, and if so what specifically was the question?

[3lusive]

Originally Posted by specofdust

Sorry, was that aimed at me, and if so what specifically was the question?

I'm just saying (and I'm no expert in this area) but according to the article I posted, 47 out of the 53 grooming offences committed in West Yorkshire were done by White British people. That means only 7.8% of it, at most, was committed by Asians in that region.

My point was why do you therefore accept that grooming young women is mostly done by Pakistanis in the UK? White people do it too, according to those figures.

I'v done a little more research... Turns out there's not much data on the offence because street grooming is not an official 'offence' and people who are done for it are done under different offences. Regardless, according to the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre's (CEOP) 2011 study, of the 2000 offenders they have data on 49% were White and 46% Asian. Now, that would suggest that Asians are more likely to commit the crime than other races because they only make up 7% of the UK's population.

However, the article suggests that because the issue has been so under-investigated, that the capture of a few big Asian-groups who commit this vile crime may vastly over-represent them in the overall crime stats. It could be true that there are much bigger White networks who commit this act, but because it hasn't been properly investigated they are doing so under the radar.

[specofdust]

Originally Posted by 3lusive

My point was why do you therefore accept that grooming young women is mostly done by Pakistanis in the UK? White people do it too, according to those figures.

Honestly I'm not going to try and find it. I can tell you it'll have been The Economist, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, or the BBC. There is some metric under which this is the case, although it does involve looking at a specific MO, and I think includes the point that it's grooming from the street, not via the internet etc. I believe the quote was a policeman, but it could have been local government.

[3lusive]

Those are news agencies though, and they don't conduct their own studies on these issues (especially into street-grooming). They just report whatever is out there.

According to the CEOP's study, you're correct in thinking that street grooming in groups is mostly done by Asians (doesn't mention which sub-sect), but wrong to think street grooming, taken as a whole, is mostly done by Asians. It isn't according to the figures we have now, as White's are just as bad for it (accounting for 49% of their offenders list), but they are more likely to operate alone and not in groups.

[specofdust]

Of these, 49% were white and 46% Asian: the proportion of Pakistani Asians remains unknown. However, in a country where Asians constitute 7% of the general population, this is a striking figure.

Are you kidding? This country is 90% white and 3.9% ex-British India (I'm using census figures there). That indicates a massive cultural problem in the British Asian community, with offence rates nearly 25 times that of the white British community.

[Nexxo]

Almost all sex slave trafficking appears to be committed by White Europeans. So I guess each ethnic group has its specialty.

[specofdust]

Different social habits, I suppose. I should point out that I'm not attempting to pursue some racial or religious agenda here, just that the numbers point out a very serious problem in the Ex-British India population, and that that lies predominantly in the ex-pakistani population and needs to be urgently addressed.

[3lusive]

Originally Posted by specofdust

Different social habits, I suppose. I should point out that I'm not attempting to pursue some racial or religious agenda here, just that the numbers point out a very serious problem in the Ex-British India population, and that that lies predominantly in the ex-pakistani population and needs to be urgently addressed.

Originally Posted by specofdust

Are you kidding? This country is 90% white and 3.9% ex-British India (I'm using census figures there). That indicates a massive cultural problem in the British Asian community, with offence rates nearly 25 times that of the white British community.

It's 6% of the UK that are Asian (well South Asian, not East Asian), according to 2009 figures - it's changed slightly since 2001.

Regardless, I agree that in this specific issue, which is small when you look at the total number of sex offences in the UK, there seems to be a cultural element to it (street grooming in groups appears to be primarily done by Asians from the data we currently have). However, street grooming is still committed by White males, who account for half of the street grooming crimes according to the CEOP's figures.

If you focus on Asian gangs, you miss out on the other half of street-grooming crimes which are committed by Whites.

Lastly, we can't be absolutely sure on the existing street grooming figures anyway, as the CEOP admit:

Originally Posted by CEOP

There is still no reliable estimate of the number of "on-street groomers" nationwide, let alone of their ethnicity. Crime is usually measured using police or court records. Those on-street grooming cases that are actually reported are difficult to disentangle from other crimes. This is because on-street grooming is not a criminal offence. Instead, cases are charged under a wide variety of offences, from rape to internal sex trafficking to false imprisonment.

So we have to be cautious about saying it's specific to one ethnic group or sect.

And again:

Originally Posted by Guardian

The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) carried out a study of on-street grooming that showed that of 753 offenders, nearly half were of Asian heritage. But the police say the phenomenon is not restricted to any one race – the vast majority of those on the sex offenders register in Greater Manchester are white (95%).

"Child sexual exploitation is not confined to one community, age demographic, social status or gender," said CEOP. It found that in one case the first contact had been a white British male who groomed the girls as girlfriends, then passed them on to an Asian gang.

[Nexxo]

Originally Posted by 3lusive

What a nice example of an integrated community.

[3lusive]

Lol. See multiculturalism can work.

[specofdust]

Originally Posted by 3lusive

It's 6% of the UK that are Asian (well South Asian, not East Asian), according to 2009 figures - it's changed slightly since 2001.

That ignores countries besides England, which I think is a little misleading, although I'm happy to agree with a number broadly between 4-8%. It makes little difference.

However, street grooming is still committed by White males, who account for half of the street grooming crimes according to the CEOP's figures.

Right, and what I'm saying is that that is very damning for ex-British Empire folks, specifically Pakistani decendents, because they form a very small part of this country's population and yet account for almost half of it's street grooming.

If you focus on Asian gangs, you miss out on the other half of street-grooming crimes which are committed by Whites.

I'm not suggesting a focus only on Asians, nor am I suggesting that white people don't commit crimes, just that there is a huge problem which is uniquely in the Pakistani community in the UK, and that that is reflected in the numbers.

So we have to be cautious about saying it's specific to one ethnic group or sect.

Cautious yes, but that shouldn't extend to completely ignoring facts when they're smacking us in the face.

[Ending Credits]

Originally Posted by specofdust

Right, and what I'm saying is that that is very damning for ex-British Empire folks, specifically Pakistani decendents, because they form a very small part of this country's population and yet account for almost half of it's street grooming.

I'm not suggesting a focus only on Asians, nor am I suggesting that white people don't commit crimes, just that there is a huge problem which is uniquely in the Pakistani community in the UK, and that that is reflected in the numbers.

Cautious yes, but that shouldn't extend to completely ignoring facts when they're smacking us in the face.

But the problem isn't uniquely within the Pakistani community; we're just established that the majority of offenders are white british. The offending rate may be higher within the Pakistani community but that doesn't make it unique to them. We should also remember that correlation does not imply causation; the reason for this inequality could be due to the Pakistani community just generally being more disadvantaged than the white british population.

In my opinion (with my limited knowledge on the subject) there will bee a demographic, both cultural and quantative, that the majority of groomers fall into and that Pakistani males will have a cultural and social inclination towards that demographic. So yes, I agree that this is a problem that needs to be looked at but its a rare occasion where you can blanket classify an entire ethno-religious group.

[specofdust]

Originally Posted by Ending Credits

We should also remember that correlation does not imply causation; the reason for this inequality could be due to the Pakistani community just generally being more disadvantaged than the white british population.

I'm not sure what advantage or disadvantage has to do with morality. There is clearly a cultural issue within the British-Pakistani community which leads a much higher than normal number of people to commit street grooming type sex attacks, and that needs to be faced and addressed. I'm not blanketing an entire entho-religious group, but I am saying that the problem of raping young girls off the street is much higher within that community, and that unless you want to resort to getting all racist then one has to face up to the fact that this is either a cultural or religious problem, and on the assumption that no-one will want to call it religious, we may as well call it a cultural problem.

[Ending Credits]

Originally Posted by specofdust

I'm not sure what advantage or disadvantage has to do with morality. There is clearly a cultural issue within the British-Pakistani community which leads a much higher than normal number of people to commit street grooming type sex attacks, and that needs to be faced and addressed. I'm not blanketing an entire entho-religious group, but I am saying that the problem of raping young girls off the street is much higher within that community, and that unless you want to resort to getting all racist then one has to face up to the fact that this is either a cultural or religious problem, and on the assumption that no-one will want to call it religious, we may as well call it a cultural problem.

It's not clearly a cultural issue, this is an indication at best. Until we have statistics comparing the British-Pakistanis with their direct peers from other ethnic backgrounds we can't be sure the correlation is due to some other factor.

Now, I happen to agree with you. Given the Islamic community's track record on their attitudes to women I'd find it hard to believe that there isn't some strong cultural inclination, but lets make sure we have the appropriate data to support our hypotheses before we act on them.

Also, what is religion if it isn't codified culture?

[specofdust]

Originally Posted by Ending Credits

It's not clearly a cultural issue, this is an indication at best. Until we have statistics comparing the British-Pakistanis with their direct peers from other ethnic backgrounds we can't be sure the correlation is due to some other factor.

Originally Posted by The Telegraph

But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white, The Times reported.

Now, I happen to agree with you. Given the Islamic community's track record on their attitudes to women I'd find it hard to believe that there isn't some strong cultural inclination, but lets make sure we have the appropriate data to support our hypotheses before we act on them.

The data for pakistani men isn't neatly collected, although snippits like the above exist, but we do know that forty something percent of offences are committed by men from ex-British India, and we do know that at least so far there's been a focus by everyone specifically on the Pakistani community.

Also, what is religion if it isn't codified culture?

It also encompasses law, superstition, replaces aspects of rational thought processses, all sorts.

[Ending Credits]

Originally Posted by specofdust

It also encompasses law, superstition, replaces aspects of rational thought processses, all sorts.

I thought those were all aspects of culture, especially the last.