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Old 20th Mar 2017, 16:18   #6621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
Corbyn is actually extolling the virtues that Labour originally had - it was the greatest Tory alive - Tony Blair that changed that
I know, which is what makes this situation so frustrating! Margaret Thatcher said that her greatest achievement was Tony B.Liar: she had forced the opposition party to change.

Let's not forget that "New Labour" were in power leading up to the financial crisis (although that situation goes back further than Tony B.Liar/Gordon Brown), and that "New Labour" instituted much of the draconian anti-terror powers that are so widely abused today.

There's been far too much of a shift to the right in British politics. A move back to the left is pretty welcome if you ask me.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 16:42   #6622
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Am I being overly cold hearted when I read the article about Parliament having "A huge burden" put upon it with as many as 15 new bills, and thinking to myself "awww, diddums, you've got to do something you're paid to do! You poor blighters."
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 18:18   #6623
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That will just encourage the government to railroad bills through with less parliamentary oversight. And the electorate will be cheering it on because Brexit.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 18:30   #6624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
That will just encourage the government to railroad bills through with less parliamentary oversight. And the electorate will be cheering it on because Brexit.
That's what the 'Great Repeal Bill' is for... so they can do 100% of the meddling with 0% of the parliamentary scrutiny or oversight...
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 18:47   #6625
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Yup...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Financial Times
Voltaire once said that the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire (“ni saint, ni romain, ni empire“). Much the same can be said of the UK government’s Great Repeal Bill, which is to be the main legislative basis of the practical process of Brexit.

There is not yet a bill. There is no draft bill for consultation. There is not even a white paper, although there was news on Monday that one is on its way — a draft is, it seems, in circulation in Whitehall. It is about 50 pages long and will, it is said, be published when the Article 50 notification is made.

The bill is not about repeal, at least not primarily. Its primary purpose will be to place into local UK law almost the entirety of currently applicable EU law. In a wonderful paradox, the bill will, in effect, be the greatest single imposition of EU law in UK legal history. This is what “taking back control” has to mean in practice.

This exercise needs to be done because two years is not long enough to sort out all, or even many, of the statutory complications of Brexit: so the bill is a work-around to place EU law on a UK basis when the conduit of the European Communities Act 1972 can no longer be used when the EU treaties cease to apply in the UK.

That leaves the word “great”. Ministers no doubt want to evoke the “Great Reform Bill” of 1832. (There was also the “Great Education Reform Bill” of 1988, which was dubbed at the time the “Gerbill”.) Few UK statutes get called “great’, just as few British monarchs get the sobriquet “the Great”. And this is a good thing, as it keeps them in their place.

But the word may be accurate, though perhaps not in the way the government wants to pretend. To achieve what needs to be done, the government is likely to put forward a number of extraordinarily wide discretionary powers where ministers (in practice, officials) can repeal or amend whole shelves of primary and secondary legislation without much or any further legislative scrutiny.

This is not to deny the enormity of the legislative task before the government. Tens of thousands of pieces of legislation need to be considered and, if necessary, reset on a different legal basis or repealed. The Department for Exiting the European Union has identified 57 policy areas that will be affected by Brexit.

The process will be far more complicated than many realise — it will not be a mere switch of labels, from EU to UK law. Decolonisation legislative processes often meant little more than switching imperial-based law to domestic law. This is (I have been told by those who would know) what happened, for example, in Ireland after 1922 or Hong Kong after 1997. The initial step was incorporation of all the law on to a local basis, and then there was divergence over time.

Brexit will require more than this neat legislative switch. A great deal of EU law is about complex Union-wide processes: systems of mutual recognition, transfers of information and shared standards. Such elaborate legal and regulatory networks, dealing with topics from aerospace to pharmaceuticals, do not lend themselves to simple re-enactments. There is no discrete legal instrument where a search-and-replace for “EU” and “UK” will do the job. Brexit is not just about re-enacting EU law on a UK basis; it will be about the legal consequences of a number of messy procedural amputations.

The wide statutory discretions sought by the government are called “Henry VIII clauses”. This is maybe unfair on the old king: during his reign parliament developed significantly as an efficient element of the constitution. But he also benefited from the Proclamation by the Crown Act 1539, the great repeal act of its day which was for an earlier complicated disentanglement from the continent. (I think the reference to his name in this context is as much to do with his reputation for axes than any act.)

The problem with such clauses is that there are few checks and balances. Parliament is excluded, even though acts of parliament may be repealed under these clauses. Even before Brexit there was concern at these powers. The former lord chief justice Lord Judge said early last year:

Quote:
“Unless strictly incidental to primary legislation, every Henry VIII clause, every vague skeleton bill, is a blow to the sovereignty of Parliament. And each one is a self-inflicted blow, each one boosting the power of the executive. Is that what we want? Is that how our constitutional arrangements must continue to develop? Should we allow the powers of the executive to increase and the sovereignty of Parliament to be diminished? [...] Save in a national emergency, only statute can repeal, suspend, amend or dispense with statute.”
But what would be the alternative to Henry VIII clauses if the legislative task of Brexit is to be achieved? It has taken about 45 years for the UK to legislate itself into its current position. To legally extract Britain from the EU cannot easily be done at speed, if it can be done at all. The only other way would be for parliament to do nothing else for as long as it takes. As one of the politicians most responsible for the creation of the EU single market once said in another context: there is no alternative.

This is why the Great Repeal Bill will, in truth, be the Great Whitehall Power Grab. Brexit will have to be as much about Whitehall taking power from Westminster as the UK taking back control from Brussels. And to those who complain, there is one simple question: how else can it be done?
Expect those workers' and human rights to be the first to burn on the "bonfire of EU red tape and regulations".
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 19:53   #6626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Expect those workers' and human rights to be the first to burn on the "bonfire of EU red tape and regulations".
I've heard of similar things before somewhere...



(Note: Yes, I am being facetious).
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 19:55   #6627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFlames View Post
That's what the 'Great Repeal Bill' is for... so they can do 100% of the meddling with 0% of the parliamentary scrutiny or oversight...
From what i heard those extra 15 bills are needed because the 'Great Repeal Bill' doesn't cover everything, i would guess it's because some parts of how the EU, and in turn future UK, does things aren't covered by EU law, I'm guessing there's some international law that the EU signs up to and we're currently covered by but won't be when we leave.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 09:08   #6628
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And there goes the free press.

Sure, the government has no plan; it has not done an economic impact assessment, it has not yet considered "details" like EHIC, a replacement for EURATOM and Open Skies etc., but MPs are crying because the BBC is being nasty to them about Brexit.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 10:25   #6629
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Yea i read that this morning and wondered if i was suffering from sort of strange reverse confirmation bias as I've found the BBC's coverage painted a rather rosy picture of what boils down to a power grab by Westminster.

It seems a bit like saying the BBC's being pessimistic and bias in it's coverage of a plane crash.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 11:01   #6630
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BBC has always been pro government to the extent most accused it of bias towards the sitting government, 70MPs now think it's doing the opposite that's kinda funny.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 12:21   #6631
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I think I recognise reaction formation when I see it.

Perhaps those MPs should concentrate a bit harder on making Brexit work rather than getting angry with others for voicing their own anxieties.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 16:13   #6632
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7641406.html

EU to sue UK. Language like that isn't helpful
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 17:19   #6633
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Monkey see, monkey do.

Saying you'd walkaway without paying probably wasn't very helpful either.

At least officials in the EU brexit department have a sense of humor.


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Old 21st Mar 2017, 18:30   #6634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7641406.html

EU to sue UK. Language like that isn't helpful
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Monkey see, monkey do.

Saying you'd walkaway without paying probably wasn't very helpful either.
Agreed. Neither was Bill Cash saying that the UK doesn't owe the EU anything and then "tactfully reminding" Germany of how their WWII debt (the 1953 London Debt Agreement) was cancelled. I mean, really?

EDIT: and let's not forget who set the tone of this. On the day after the referendum Nigel Farage acted out his embarrassing 'All About Nigel' psychodrama in which he lambasted the EU and insulted MEPs. Since then the narrative in the UK has been one not of a country that simply seeks another future for itself, but of one of a nation that gleefully hopes to destroy the EU in its wake. Even this week mini-me Paul Nuttall had another rant at the EU's plans for further integration. I mean, you are leaving. What business is it anymore of yours what the EU does?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 19:16   #6635
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May we all live in `interesting` times then

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Old 21st Mar 2017, 19:22   #6636
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Quote:
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Monkey see, monkey do.

Saying you'd walkaway without paying probably wasn't very helpful either.

At least officials in the EU brexit department have a sense of humor.

What's interesting about this is that both sides probably see themselves as Tintin.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 20:06   #6637
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But when the boat sinks, they'll both drown.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 23:49   #6638
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So... a NatCen Social Research survey of 2322 voters has revealed that 88 per cent of Leave voters and 91 per cent of Remain supporters saying they wish to maintain free trade with the EU and retain many of the perks of membership.

Two-thirds of Leave voters (67 per cent) and 83 per cent of Remain voters, for example, want the UK to keep EU regulations that set minimum standards for water quality at beaches. A similar majority think British mobile phone companies should adhere to EU regulations that limit the cost of calls made while abroad, and support requiring British-owned airlines to follow EU rules on compensating passengers who experience delays.



But none of the obligations; a majority of Remain voters even agree (58 per cent) with the 82 per cent of Leave voters who want potential EU migrants to Britain to be treated in the same way as non-EU migrants and vice versa for British emigrants in the EU.



The survey concludes: "This is perhaps typical of the pick-and-mix attitude to the EU that has characterised much of Britain’s relationship with the institution during its 44 years of membership so far."

In the event that the UK faces the choice of accepting freedom of movement as a condition of free trade, 44 per cent of Conservative supporters feel the trade-off would be worthwhile, while 55 per cent would not be willing to go through with the deal. In contrast, 63 per cent of Labour voters would be in favour of making such a concession.

According to Mr Curtice, “the stance taken by the UK government of wanting to end freedom of movement but maintain free trade fits well with the views of most Conservative voters”. The survey found that 93 per cent were in favour of free trade with the bloc. But, cautioned, Mr Curtice “it also means that they are also the group that are most likely to be disappointed if they were to come to the conclusion that the government has failed to achieve that objective. Theresa May could be faced with political difficulties at home if she struggles to achieve her key objectives in Brussels.”

Of course the MP who raised such "have your cake and eat it" expectations, Boris Johnson, is now advocating that it would be just fine to walk away without any deal and default to WTO rules.
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 08:35   #6639
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What gave me a jebus lads moment the other day was hearing how the economy has overtaken immigration and terrorism as the biggest concern of the UK public, it's almost like no one told them how Brexit would make them poorer.
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 09:05   #6640
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That's OK, the government will just fine the BBC for "being so negative" about Brexit, and the electorate can stop worrying. Because that is what a free press means in Britain today.

I mean, the stupid, it burns! MPs are arguing that the BBC's "bias" (how dare it present Brexit as a complex matter with challenges!) may undermine the UK economy and negotiating position with the EU, by making it appear less confident. Of course hysterically threatening a respected Institution of the free press does not create such an impression at all.

But when Brexit all goes to pot, at least the government has already got its scapegoats lined up.
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Last edited by Nexxo; 22nd Mar 2017 at 09:28.
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bit-tech breakfast thread, brexit means breakfast, derailment: the thread, fear mongering!!, findyerdummies, grow up people, i'm not f**ked, immigration, internet fight, jesus christ this thread, jesus this echo chamber, little britain, nexxo needs to stop, nexxo versus, no we are not all f**ked, remoaner circle jerk, someone is obsessing!!!, storm in a teacup, unicorn fetish, we totally are f**ked, were all f**ked now, what is the eu?, wheres walle's breakfast?, £3.50 to the nhs!

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