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Old 28th Feb 2016, 20:46   #101
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Still voting definitely to leave.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 21:17   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
I love the logic: somehow being outside of it is supposed to give the UK more power and influence over its relationship with the EU, than being part of it. Yeah, sure.
Don't want to be part of the European project, you can't change what is slowly taking away the power to change it.

In the 70s we where sold a trading union and got a greater EU. They outright lied and now want us to trust them again!

Sorry but no. Would rather hard years than being part of something you can't control.



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Old 28th Feb 2016, 22:14   #103
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That's just emotive defiance, not rational decision making.
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Old 28th Feb 2016, 22:23   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
That's just emotive defiance, not rational decision making.
No trust has to be earned and I don't trust them going of their previous history.

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Old 29th Feb 2016, 06:20   #105
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Either make it the United States of Europe or dissolve it and go back to the ETC.
I'd prefer the U.S.of E
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 12:20   #106
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Quote:
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No trust has to be earned and I don't trust them going of their previous history.
The problem is: Who else do you trust? The UK cannot stand alone --it needs allies.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 12:43   #107
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Originally Posted by aramil View Post
They outright lied and now want us to trust them again!
I thought that was part of the job description for being an MP.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 13:08   #108
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People like to be lied to. Politicians oblige.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 13:38   #109
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Stay.

We're not the country we think we are, we need them more than they need us.

Until we harness British Cynicism as a power source, we don't really contribute much to the world any more.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 14:15   #110
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Quote:
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People like to be lied to. Politicians oblige.
How do i know you're not lying.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 14:58   #111
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As i stated before if we knew where the EU was going as opposed to a sort of this and that I would be more in favor, but as it stands it's a no.

Quote:
The whole EU idea has become toxic setting germans against greek, french against itallians, etc. It is no longer outward & forward looking, and has become insular and closed almost stuck in an idea of the past (trying to protect everything and allow nothing). To survive it needs at least a fiscal union for the euro to work, which again means a lot more EU. And as stated by many people you will never get all of these countries to agree to give up that much control.

What other option is there? A Europe wide trade deal anyone?

If the EU countries had actually been honest in the first part and had sat round a table and worked on a who/what/where/when of a unified europe which was democratically responcable and accountable would we be having these issues now? People complain when our government outright lies to us, and we call for change/get rid of them/reform, yet it seems to be OK when the EU does it (mainly via the back door), because sometimes they do something that may be worthwhile (or at least try to claim credit for global changes (unleaded fuel)).
I am sorry you feel that the only option for the UK is to be slowly consumed by the EU, leaving Westminster as a local enforcer of eu law. leading to a system where your say will mean even less than it does now.

But don't worry the EU has a history of not accepting referendum that come back with the "wrong" answer. (watch EU democracy at work lol).
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 15:03   #112
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Leave. Its turned into an unelected nightmare, and we have lost control of our borders. I think that bit is far too late but the quicker we are out the better.

I couldn't give a toss about being able to travel and work in Europe. The human rights act is a joke and being hidden behind for a million different reasons. It needs simplifying and enshrined into British Law.

I have no problem, with immigration, far from it, but it needs to be controlled. When you go to where I was born (East London) and find it totally gone, and whole areas riddled with crime from foreigners, its a problem thats totally uneccesary. We should be allowed to deport them. The influx of Poles and Lithuanians in that area is just incredible. Of course British citizens will commit crimes and that is our repsonsiblity, but gangs of foreign criminals are not.

The benefit claiming for child benefit so money can be sent back 'home' just HAS to stop. Again simple legislation that was vetoed by Europe.

Asylum seeking needs to be brought under control and our hands are tied by European legislation.

Our fishing and farming industry has been totaly screwed over, our NHS can't cope although I do appreciate the irony that without foreign staffing levels, especially at doctor levels we would be stuffed, but it needs to be controlled.

When circumstances get to like they are now, is allows people like Hitler to rise to power. The origins of his rise to power and evenyually World War II started over less than what's gone on now and its brewing up all over again.

We need to have a policy like Australia where only skilled people can enter the country to live and work, in jobs where there is a shortage of labour.

Definately OUT.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 15:49   #113
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To all those bemoaning the Human Rights Act/ECHR...

... you do know the ECHR has bugger all to do with the EU, right?
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 16:12   #114
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To all those bemoaning the Human Rights Act/ECHR...

... you do know the ECHR has bugger all to do with the EU, right?
I feel it is more to do with the fact UK courts say the law means this and so this should apply/not apply, and then the EU court comes in says we are wrong and we have to do it this way, with no way to say other wise.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 16:36   #115
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Repeat after bart -



Quote:
I feel it is more to do with the fact UK courts say the law means this and so this should apply/not apply, and then the EU court comes in says we are wrong and we have to do it this way, with no way to say other wise.
Care to share an example where the EU/ECJ has done this?... not the ECtHR, the EU...
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 16:56   #116
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"A new mechanism was introduced by Protocol 14 to assist enforcement of judgements by the Committee of Ministers. The Committee can ask the Court for an interpretation of a judgement and can even bring a member state before the Court for non-compliance of a previous judgement against that state. Protocol 14 also allows for European Union accession to the Convention. The protocol has been ratified by every Council of Europe member state." which basicly allows to EU to call on the ECHR to for member states to tow the line.

I don't see a great difference when it is in both of there interests to agree. It is another none accountable court.

"The UK government is, however, committed to repealing the Human Rights Act which requires UK courts to treat the ECHR as setting legal precedents for the UK, in favour of a British Bill of Rights. As part of that, David Cameron is expected to announce measures that will boost the powers of courts in England and Wales to over-rule judgements handed down by the EHCR."

so kind of a mute point.
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 17:35   #117
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Not wanting to tread on RedFlames toes but i think the point he's making is that the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) is not a court specifically dealing with EU matters, that's unless Russian has suddenly become a part of Europe without anyone realising.
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Old 1st Mar 2016, 01:50   #118
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I don't see a great difference when it is in both of there interests to agree. It is another none accountable court.
Courts aren't meant to be accountable. That's why we have appointed judges, and not elected ones. If they were accountable to the people then they'd be run by Simon Cowell and TOWIE stars.
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Old 1st Mar 2016, 08:39   #119
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If you're unsure, rather than go with the 'masses', read this article from the economist. Very succinct.

http://www.economist.com/news/leader...st-real-danger
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Old 2nd Mar 2016, 00:29   #120
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Gotta say that article keeps bringing me to a few concerns I have questions about
1) 5th Largest Economy and one of the biggest military spends too - surely leaving then weakens Europe not ourselves. We're no longer focusing on defending them but ourselves. We can negioate (Look at Cameron go achieving the unachievable with his handbag at dawn) and continue to build our economy without having to prop up a French farmer or a factory in Romania.
2) if Europe is on the Ropes as the article puts it and our leaving could cause collapse then why on earth is staying on a sinking ship the logical way forward? I want to be on a liferaft when that ship sinks not in the engine room throwing more coal on the fire.
3) the whole notion of "large punishments" to discourage others from leaving again reminds me of the captain holding everyone hostage. "How dare we leave his ship"
4) the article also assumes Europe is the only place we could trade with. What about the US, Russia, India, China, Brazil, Iran. TBH I don't care about being the moral compass of the world. If we leave let the US and Europe do that. I'd happily trade with Russia for oil and Gas if Europe imposed sanctions...and yes it is sanctions they are already threatening to impose.

TBH the more I hear everyday from the stay in camp the more I want to leave. As cometely irrational as it is, Cameron is doing more harm than good and over the last few months has resorted to name calling on every single issue that someone doesn't agree with him on. Donald Trump is more eloquent than him and I disagree with everything he says.
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