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View Poll Results: Should we be EU members?
In 105 64.02%
Out 44 26.83%
Shake it all about 15 9.15%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 25th Jun 2016, 18:44   #181
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IPSOS MORI have said if the same number of younger people had actually voted as the number of older people - REMAIN would have won.


no point being whiny if you don't put your X in the box
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Old 25th Jun 2016, 18:51   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Barack Obama said something that the leave campaign has used alot and it is a harsh fact.

The freer international flow of goods and people has the possibility of extraordinary benefits, Obama says. But he admits the gains are not evenly shared.

Globalisation has become the big thing. Not everyone is recieving its benefits in equal measure is a fact. Compare the wages in a city like London to those up north doing the same job.

Someone else said something pretty fitting, The Haves voted remain, The Have nots voted leave. UK has a massive Rich / Poor Divide these days.

The North South divide is the term thats used, Its never been wider than it is this year.

Trump is wininng an election based on deception and words, Problem is the American Rich and Elite are still ignoring him and spouting nonesence, The non elite do not care that he might not be spouting the truth. They care he might make a change if thats better or worse they are willing to take a risk.
I'm sorry, but what? The Haves voted remain and the Have Nots voted leave? Well ****, excuse me while I go roll in my money piles, since I must be one of the Haves.

The reason the vote had the demographics that it did was because people in the poor and deprived areas have been duped by the likes of UKIP and the other political parties have followed the UKIP tune because they could see which way the wind was blowing. They have blamed immigration and the EU for the fact that people can't get or keep a job, or can't get a doctor's appointment, or can't get treatment. This simply is not true. These people have been shafted by governments of the last several decades and now they've been shafted again by liars and charlatans like Nigel Farage and Michael Gove who have spectacularly directed attention away from the real problem.

I come from one of the most deprived areas of Wales, an area that suffered very badly from the decline of coal mining and manufacturing. An area that has been consistently and repeatedly let down by governments of all colours, yet drive around my home town and you will see plenty of signs bearing the EU flag, proudly advertising the fact that money for redevelopment for this area has come from the EU. Thatcher's government screwed us over decades ago, and governments since then have been dancing to the same tune. The EU has helped us, yet these lying shits are telling us that the one organisation supporting us are the ones to blame for the problems that they themselves caused.
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Old 25th Jun 2016, 20:45   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23RO_UK View Post
+1

Nex, can I further add that geographically the areas affected over the years by the closure of various industries which caused wholesale unemployment are those areas which proportionally voted to leave.

It's not that I believe in any shape, form or manner that they are the under educated poor elements of society who were swayed by political idiots and propaganda - I believe that after the years of hardship they and their families have endured they decided to have their say in a democratic society.

As a so called Socialist I thought you might appreciate that sentiment.
Just because someone's feelings are valid, doesn't mean that their thinking or acting on those feelings are. Yes, they have lots of valid reasons to feel disenfranchised and betrayed. No, that does not give automatic validity to their actions. I appreciate that if the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything starts to look like David Cameron's face, but it doesn't change the fact that they allowed themselves to be swayed by blatant, hostile, nasty propaganda because basically, the narrative appealed to them. They swallowed the BS from the same politicians they previously complained screwed them over for decades without as much as firing up Google and just checking a few facts (if they could do it after the vote, why not a few weeks before?) because they were too preoccupied with sticking it to the man and blaming some foreigners.

I am a socialist no more. There is only so much compassion you can muster for a persistent self-harmer, especially if they wish harm on you too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeStorm View Post
+1

I'm with Spreadie with regards to your posts/position in this thread Nexxo, tend to think you're on point and articulate and polite etc, but you've often come across a bit condescending and rude, neither of which help anything.

The decision has been made (which was a complete shock for me I might add) and so now it's best to focus on what might happen now, no need for name calling, that doesn't help anything nor will it encourage people who voted leave for possibly the wrong reasons to reconsider their choice.
What can I say? Like the people who voted Leave, I feel a bit hard done by too. As a EU immigrant I have contributed to the NHS, paid my taxes, integrated into British society and cared for the disenfranchised in the estates that my service covers for 24 years. Then I see immigrants being held up as the bogey man, the criminal who comes to this country to abuse its welfare system and molest its women and the electorate laps it up and wants us gone. 25% of Brexit voters wants all EU immigrants deported --including those already settled here. Including me.

I've been a bit stressed about this. I've been filling out my Indefinite Leave to Remain papers, digging up my P60s to prove I have been working here longer than five years, and checking up my immigration status after a Brexit (answer: nobody knew). So, if the Leavers' actions should be understood in the context of their very valid feelings of disenfranchisement, then perhaps the tone of my posts deserves the same consideration.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 01:09   #184
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I am a socialist no more.
Where are you planting the flag now then?
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 09:16   #185
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In an attempt to integrate as a British citizen I'll follow the country's example of planting it in my own back yard.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 09:30   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
In an attempt to integrate as a British citizen I'll follow the country's example of planting it in my own back yard.
not the south of france then :P
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 09:31   #187
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 09:43   #188
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Everybody I know who voted is plain old working class, ie in work but not rich enough to not be in debt.
Most voted leave and were against the EU even before this referendum.
I know a few people who are neet's and most of that lot refuse to vote.

I guess it depends on the area you live, But to say it was the poor that got a leave vote is bordering ignorance shown by that of the so-called political class.

There are plenty of workers, coppers, fireman. NHS staff, civil service and military who have no problem talking about their leave vote, Why would they lie, Unless of course you buy into the PC world that demonizes anybody with an opinion that is outside the norms of cultural marxism.
If this is the start of the death of marxism and it's long march through our institutions, we are all the wiser for it. The word is out and people are starting to wake up.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 09:57   #189
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As soon as you used the words "Marxism" and "wake up" I decided to tune you out, sorry.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:01   #190
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the problem though with these protests , as I can see is again its the `angry yoof` throwing a tantrum

like they did last year when labour were hammered in the elections and why corbyn got voted in
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:05   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynecider View Post
I guess it depends on the area you live, But to say it was the poor that got a leave vote is bordering ignorance shown by that of the so-called political class
Depends on where you want to draw the line on your definition of "poor" but that's exactly what happened, it's not ignorance, it's fact, 64% of non working, semi-skilled, unskilled manual workers, and skilled working class voted to leave, it's an almost 50-50 split among lower middle class, and finally the middle class, and upper middle class favored remain by 57-43%.

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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:24   #192
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So..
There's talks of a new general election. One that if the lib dems win would over turn the EU result as its a new mandate.

All those in favour of stay from a torie perspective would vote lib dem, as would the labour side.. This could very well mean that the EU vote to leave may be over ruled and a new 5 year stint would follow from the referendum vote.

As a temp measure I wouldn't put it past many party followers to vote lib dem in order to succeed in this.

The issue is the current PM needs to push for a general election which he can't as he resigned.

The tories are fighting to keep boris from rising to power, labour are fighting within them selves and the lib dems are sitting at the side line waiting to politically black mail an entire country to vote them in in a bid to stop the referendum result.

Anywho, that's the measure I have from it, flick on the news BBC, SKY etc and make what you will from the chaos. I'm blown away, regardless of result, the people have spoken and yet again politics are looking to over throw it all..
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:44   #193
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wont be another general - the fixed term act of 2011 puts paid to that idea
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:50   #194
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AFAIK a GE can be called but it would need a vote of no confidence in the government, I'm not sure what the rules are for a no confidence vote, were in strange times so I'm not ruling anything out but a no confidence vote seems unlikely.

If however there was a GE every political party would stand on re-written manifestos, i.e they can say they'd ignored the referendum result, accept it, trigger Article 50, or any number of things relating to future relations with the EU.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:51   #195
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The people haven't spoken; the people have ranted. In a referendum , which has no legal status whatsoever in any case.

Already the key promises made by Leave have been nixed. Congratulations Leavers, you voted for nothing. There will be no extra money for the NHS and no reduction in immigration and no immediate invocation of Article 50.

And do you see Johnson pitching for the job? Or Gove? Hell no, because being PM of the Tory party has just become a poison chalice: they would become responsible for triggering Article 50 and nobody has the balls to actually do it, because they have no plan.

Chris Grayling has already started psychologically preparing people for a long delay on invoking Article 50 and the aim of continued EEA membership, with all the implications of membership fees and free movement, while reminding people of Labour as a bad choice in case a general election is called.

If the UK Brexits at all. I think it was always the plan to delay Article 50 until after the 2020 elections in any case, and the Lib Dems have already positioned themselves as the Remain choice. That's 48% of highly motivated voters right there. And if they win, Brexit is off.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 10:54   #196
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actually there will be money for the NHS - IDS has said there will be extra money but not the full 350 million - he can see which way the wind is blowing


oh and geert wilders is drumming up support in the Netherlands for an attempt at Nexit....

you have al;ready linked the plan flexcit , but a lot of hard and fast negotiation needs to happen before france lurches to the right and starts playing outside the rule book
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 11:02   #197
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Means nothing. The Conservatives have managed to make a 20% cut in NHS budget sound like increased investment over the last years ("Look! We're giving an extra 8billion! and cutting by 22billion at the same time.). You wouldn't believe the creative bookkeeping practices that go on in the NHS.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 11:09   #198
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The people haven't spoken; the people have ranted. In a referendum , which has no legal status whatsoever in any case.
Maybe a better way to put it would be that they voted *against* something not *for* something.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 11:11   #199
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An even better way to put it would be that they have registered their opinion against something, not for something.
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Old 26th Jun 2016, 11:16   #200
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unlike the Scottish referendum the result doesn't have legal sway

on the other hand , it would take a leader with huge steel balls to ignore the will of the people ; loud left wing students not withstanding
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