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Old 6th Mar 2017, 17:12   #2921
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Originally Posted by Anfield View Post
Given the length of time from his first one getting struck down he may have actually consulted with legal experts and other departments on this one, although knowing Trump he probably only took the advise of people who agreed with him.

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Old 6th Mar 2017, 17:35   #2922
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
Yeah, and the cherrypicking begins again.
You state that " it was the work of muslim scholars like al-Ghazali around 1100 AD, who deemed mathematics the work of the devil and basically forbid all muslims to engage in science". I am providing a quote by the man himself to prove that fact incorrect.

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Also note, that I wrote scholars like him, which includes the whole lot of scholars at the turn of the century, who wanted to see to it, that the religion superseeds all other things. Out of this increase in religiosity comes the decline in scientific work, as it was alot easier to say "because allah..." then to actually take the scientific approach.
So I am supposed to accept a general premise that you built around a single fact that is blatantly incorrect? Son, you'll have to try harder.

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I'm against all religion to play any meaningful role in the world of today. Religion, like Nitzsche said, is truly working like an opioid, numbing the brains of the people, stopping them from thinking for themselves.
I will briefly step aside and let Terry Pratchett, a confirmed atheist himself, make the best argument for spirituality and faith that I have ever read (for those who don't know his works: Death, the grim reaper, appears as a skeleton in a black cloak and carries a scythe, TALKS LIKE THIS. Susan, currently employed as a nanny, is his adopted granddaughter (just read the story). The Hogfather is the Discworld's equivalent of Santa Claus, but closer to his darker, pagan origins).

Quote:
“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
In the western world we became more and more succesful, the more we left religion behind us and became secular instead. There's a reason for that and you can best observe that in the USA, where there's large populations of very religious people. These religious people aren't going to invent the new technologies that will guarantee a prosperous economy in the future, quite contrary they'll actually try to prevent them, by not allowing science to be tought in school.
Then again, it took science to develop the kind of technology to kill people on an industrially efficient scale and to cause global warming and pollution. I think that your dichotomous view of "science = all good" and "religion = all bad" (and, incidentally implied, Muslims = religieus, ergo Muslims = bad) is ludicrously simplistic, inaccurate and totally ignorant of how people work.

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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
That's exactly what happened in the muslim world allmost 1000 years ago. Religion became more important than science and the prosperity vanished.
Yup. Let's ignore for instance the increased use of dissection in Islamic medicine during the 12th and 13th centuries which was influenced by the writings of (drum roll) Al-Ghazali, who encouraged the study of anatomy and use of dissections as a method of gaining knowledge of God's creation. This culminated in the work of Ibn al-Nafis, who discovered the pulmonary circulation in 1242.

Muslim scolars also posited that the Earth rotates around its axis (in the prevailing Aristotelian model it was stationary) and contemplated the existence of a multiverse.

According to many historians, science in the Muslim civilization flourished during the Middle Ages, but began declining at some time around the 14th century partly due to the Crusades and the invasion of the Mongol Empire.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 00:11   #2923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
Ofc the crusades were very bad, but don't forget about the 2-300 years of constant attacks and raids by the muslims in europe prior to that and then another 2-300 of constant attacks and raids after the crusades. The muslims waged war in europe for some 600 years, enslaving anyone who didn't manage to escape.

If you start speaking history, don't forget to look at the whole picture.
It doesn't fit the "evil" white man narrative which is why it's mostly ignored.

At the time of the Crusades the Moslems were a house divided, had been for a long time, the infighting among themselves were the primary reason for their decline, not the Crusades. The Crusaders managed to gain a foothold using force, true, and hold it (Creating the Kingdom of Jerusalem which lasted ~200 years), but they didn't hold it using brute force, but using diplomacy, trade and religious tolerance whilst keeping Jerusalem open for all faiths. They were of course helped by the infighting among the Moslems which lasted for most of the Christian presence there, infighting which temporarily ceased after Saladin united them, only to be back in full swing again shortly after he was gone. It's still in full swing in certain regions.

Once united it was no longer possible for the small number of Christians to maintain control and one crusader state after the other fell.

The last stronghold was Malta, and it would last all the way up to the Napoleonic era.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 07:09   #2924
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It doesn't fit the "evil" white man narrative which is why it's mostly ignored.
You poor victim, you.

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Originally Posted by walle View Post
At the time of the Crusades the Moslems were a house divided, had been for a long time, the infighting among themselves were the primary reason for their decline, not the Crusades. The Crusaders managed to gain a foothold using force, true, and hold it (Creating the Kingdom of Jerusalem which lasted ~200 years), but they didn't hold it using brute force, but using diplomacy, trade and religious tolerance whilst keeping Jerusalem open for all faiths.
That rosy picture is much in dispute from contemporary accounts. In the cities, Muslims and Eastern Christians were free, although no Muslims were permitted to live in Jerusalem itself. They were second-class citizens and played no part in politics or law although in some cities they may have been the majority of the population. There were an unknown number of Muslim slaves living in the Kingdom. There was a very large slave market in Acre which functioned throughout the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Although Christians, both Western and Eastern, were by law prohibited from being sold into slavery, the native Christians were often indistinguishable from the Muslim population and the Italian merchants were sometimes accused of selling them along with Muslim slaves.

Escape for prisoners and slaves was probably not difficult, as the inhabitants of the countryside were majority Muslim, and fugitive slaves were always a problem. The only legal means of manumission was conversion to (Catholic) Christianity. No Christian, whether Western or Eastern, was permitted by law to be sold into slavery

The nomadic Bedouin tribes were considered to be the property of the king and under his protection. They could be sold or alienated just like any other property, and later in the 12th century they were often under the protection of a lesser noble or one of the military orders.

21st century positions on the question of cultural integration or cultural apartheid remains debated. Interactions between the Franks and the native Muslims and Christians, though muddled, prevailed on practical coexistence.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 09:08   #2925
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
You poor victim, you.
The victimhood card is played by other races and minorities, and very much part of their "evil" white man narrative.

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That rosy picture is much in dispute from contemporary accounts
Not so much a rosy picture but a summary of what made it possible for the Christians to remain in control, not much in dispute, also a necessity for them to be able to remain in control as a minority whilst running four states. They couldn't use brute force, they had to resort to diplomacy, trade and religious tolerance. And of course, cultural appropriation to a certain extent.


Edit.
Speaking of rosy pictures, have you read, The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise: Muslims, Christians, and Jews under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain, yet?
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 09:52   #2926
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http://www.richardwarrenfield.com/In...20Fiction.html

an interesting read
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 12:37   #2927
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The victimhood card is played by other races and minorities, and very much part of their "evil" white man narrative.
So you feel victimised by others' victimhood?
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 13:04   #2928
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I was referring to a historical context being omitted which would help explain the crusades, and that omitting the context creates the “evil” white man narrative. In this case as the aggressor.

I then proceeded to point out that the victimhood card is played by other races and minorities, and very much part of the "evil" white man narrative.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 14:51   #2929
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"All Muslims are evil"

"I don't think that the facts support the interpretation that all Muslims are evil"

"Are you accusing white people of being evil?!"
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 15:22   #2930
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People can be evil regardless if they are cis white male or mint green trans space kin.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 15:36   #2931
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People can be evil regardless if they are cis white male or mint green trans space kin.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 17:15   #2932
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"All Muslims are evil"

"I don't think that the facts support the interpretation that all Muslims are evil"

"Are you accusing white people of being evil?!"
"All white people are racist"

"I don't think that the facts support the interpretation that all whites are racist"

"Are you accusing brown people of being racist?!"

You can replace racist with evil.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 17:35   #2933
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But that has not been our conversation, has it? We've been hearing how Muslims are violent, and white right-wing extremists have only been violent in response to Muslim violence. Then there was an interesting foray into Islam as anti-science and backwards, based on evidence which turned out to be blatantly wrong.

The response to that? I'm"cherry picking" and apparently asserting that white people are evil. Nice straw man, but no prizes for trying.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 18:10   #2934
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But that has not been our conversation, has it? We've been hearing how Muslims are violent, and white right-wing extremists have only been violent in response to Muslim violence. Then there was an interesting foray into Islam as anti-science and backwards, based on evidence which turned out to be blatantly wrong.

The response to that? I'm"cherry picking"
You must be talking to jrs77 at this point, not me. You must be, because you're quoting him, not me.

We've had two discussions going simultaneously since post 2923, which was a response I made to jrs77 regarding the crusades and what led up to them, you then decided to respond to that post, and now all the sudden you backtrack BACK to a post that jrs77 posted and quotes he made.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 18:57   #2935
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I'm sorry, I thought that you were joining our conversation, but you're saying you're having a completely separate one?

That explains a lot. Carry on.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 19:11   #2936
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A lot of assumptions going on that western and middle east cultures developed in isolation which is frankly ridiculous.

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Old 7th Mar 2017, 19:54   #2937
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I'm sorry, I thought that you were joining our conversation, but you're saying you're having a completely separate one?

That explains a lot. Carry on.
I'm saying you and I had a separate discussion in his absence, and that you initiated it. Can't join your discussion when the guy isn't around.

It's ok, it's all good, Carry on.
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 19:57   #2938
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Sorry, are you talking to me?
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 20:07   #2939
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Not anymore I'm not
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 20:15   #2940
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Was it something I said?...
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