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Old 13th Mar 2017, 02:00   #21
theshadow2001
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Well the way I see it I've already been dead for 13.82 billion years and I didn't notice a thing. Then my mother grew me and gave birth to me and here I am. Once I cease to exist again, I have nothing to make me believe it will be any different from the first time I didn't exist
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 09:06   #22
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Don't get me wrong, I am an atheist. I feel that once you die, you're dead. There is nothing, the same as before we developed our consciousness.

I think as a person gets older their perspective can change. As a 20 year old man, I wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, sod getting old and being stuck in a home or living life as an old man. I wanted to go out with a bang. Now I have kids I want to be here as long as I can, or I should say as long as I can and still be useful to them. Part of me wishes there was an afterlife too. I think I can understand why people turn to religion as they get older and/or they face their own mortality. I'm not there yet, but maybe I will be when I get older than what I am now, who knows

I'd love in my life time for all the big questions to be answered. I know that isn't going to happen though, which is a shame Knowing why we and the universe exists would be better than not, I think.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 13:44   #23
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Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
Time is an irrational concept invented by man
Yes and no, the measurement of time was invented by man but time itself wasn't, it's like saying we invented meter's, feet, and inches, we didn't invent distance just the scales that measure it.

Time, or rather what separates one event from another as far as we can tell has been around since time began, pun intended.

Last edited by Corky42; 13th Mar 2017 at 14:22.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 14:07   #24
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Yes and no, the measurement of time was invented by man but time itself wasn't, it's like saying we invented meter's, feet, and inches, we didn't invent distance just the scales that measure it.

Time, or rather what separates one event from another, as far as we can tell, has been around since time began, pun intended.
Some would argue that time is relative though, rather than absolute, just to muddy the waters even more. That's what fascinates me, the concept of time seems simple and absolute.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 14:21   #25
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I found out that despite my girlfriend being very scientific and studied archaeology believes in some unknown force helping start human life but evolution. Made for an interesting conversation as I just believe in we're a random set of variables being right for life to develop.

I think my reasoning is that I prefer the loneliness of the Universe over the thought of other beings having influence or control over our existence whether it us being AI or physical.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 14:28   #26
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Speaking purely from a metaphysical point of view who or what do you think defined those variables?
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 16:48   #27
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Speaking purely from a metaphysical point of view who or what do you think defined those variables?
I think that everything in the beginning of the universe was based on random events and everything else evolved purely on the laws of nature.

Pure coincidence. No who or what necessary at all.

Also, who needs a god to feel connected to the universe, when we're literally stardust? All of the elements we consist of (besides Hydrogen) were formed in stars and flung into the universe once they exploded in a supernova. There's no thought more enlightening than that imho.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 18:13   #28
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Is anything random though or is what we perceive as random events just something we've yet to understand, isn't randomness just a reflection of our ignorance of the thing we're observing?
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 20:49   #29
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Random means, that there's more than one possible outcome. You can take the same elements and just arrange them in a different way and voilá... different results. We allready know that these things happen in nature, without any apparent reason, or atleast no reason worth mentioning.

For example, the order in which you add the elements in a testtube makes a difference ofc, but if you just throw all the elements in a pot and give it a good stir and observe the appearance of two different outcomes, i.e. arrangements of these elements to form a molecule then it's allmost proven to be randomized.

If we accept there to be randomness doesn't mean that we don't try to understand the universe better, but it makes a higher entity unnecessary.
By the same token, if we accept there to be some randomness, then we can much more easily accept events like the sudden death of a child, a friend, etc. Basically you can live by the mantra: 5hit happens, which is very liberating tbh.

On the other hand, those who strictly believe there to be a divine entitiy, they cannot accept such random events and allways try to search for someone or somewhat to blame, often themselves. This is a rather sad state to live your life.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 08:40   #30
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Personally i would disagree that there's any such thing as randomness, just our own lack of understanding on what effected an outcome, it's something that's been debated in science for many years, is there such a thing as randomness?

Using your throwing elements in a pot thought experiment, is what you see as two random outcomes really random or just a lack of understanding on how those elements react, how each atom moves, the temperatures, etc, etc.

With enough information about the pot and everything else involved theoretically you could predict the outcome every time and it no longer becomes random.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 10:59   #31
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I had a friend at university who had a theory which he described as 'quantum determinism'. The basis of it was that at the moment of the big bang, every particle in the universe was set on a path which inevitably lead the universe to it's current state and will dictate it's progress. While the effect of two particles meeting is may be unknown the encounters themselves are inevitable.

Of course this then feeds in to discussions about free will and determinism which is a whole other philosophical kettle of fish
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:08   #32
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I had a friend at university who had a theory which he described as 'quantum determinism'. The basis of it was that at the moment of the big bang, every particle in the universe was set on a path which inevitably lead the universe to it's current state and will dictate it's progress. While the effect of two particles meeting is may be unknown the encounters themselves are inevitable.

Of course this then feeds in to discussions about free will and determinism which is a whole other philosophical kettle of fish
It's a rather meaningless statement but I challenge anyone to argue against "everything that has happened was always going to happen". It's fairly self evident
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:16   #33
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Some would argue that time is relative though, rather than absolute, just to muddy the waters even more. That's what fascinates me, the concept of time seems simple and absolute.
Time is what we came up with to use as reference points during our journey here I think, to get some bearings in this reality, some structure. Year tide, it's this time of day, gotta keep the time, deadlines, birthdays, all that stuff, and our experience and perception of it will differ. If you live in a country with four distinctive seasons it will result in you having a different perception of time, than if you lived in say the BVI.

Your're having a good time? time flies. You're having a boring time? time comes to a grinding halt. Your young? Different perception altogether, in fact you're not really aware of it since you're very much in the moment as a child. Getting older? Work responsibilities? Now you're perception changes again. It's fluid.

Besides. How could time exist in an infinity consciousness anyway so how would you measure it, even IF we could, we would have to know exactly when the clock was set. But wait, here, hold my beer, Today time begins, it's [insert year] and from this day forward we start counting. Now, give me back my beer. Just like that?! Yes, just like that, now lets create a clock and a calendar and also make sure we ratify it before someone else comes along either asking questions or with different ideas.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:31   #34
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But if there is a hell and thats where you've headed then you may be dead but you'd face an enternity of damnation. For hell to exist you'd have to accept that the afterlife exists.
I'm as sure as I can be that there is unlikely to be an afterlife. It's far too convenient to say that you die and then you're given another - that's the big draw of Religion. They're the only holders of the truth, that they themselves can not even explain. I'd be content with being open-minded about both a 'God' and an 'Afterlife' if there was a single shred of evidence for the existence of either. They say it takes 'faith', but the very definition of faith is conviction without proof.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:32   #35
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@walle, Not that you'll read this walle but what you're describing is the measurement of time not time itself.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:35   #36
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I'd be content with being open-minded about both a 'God' and an 'Afterlife' if there was a single shred of evidence for the existence of either.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just to be clear I'm not saying i believe in god or an afterlife, I'd class myself as agnostic.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:50   #37
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just to be clear I'm not saying i believe in god or an afterlife, I'd class myself as agnostic.
That's an ignorant argument. You shouldn't assume something to be true just because there is no evidence for it to be false.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 11:56   #38
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It's a rather meaningless statement but I challenge anyone to argue against "everything that has happened was always going to happen". It's fairly self evident
But surely for that to be true of the past then it must also be true of the future, leaving no room for agency on the part of the individual. Therefore we cannot truly be held responsible for any of our actions, which have also been stripped of all meaning.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 12:05   #39
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That's an ignorant argument. You shouldn't assume something to be true just because there is no evidence for it to be false.
That's not what it says. It says you shouldn't assume something to be false until there is evidence that it is false.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 12:13   #40
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That's not what it says. It says you shouldn't assume something to be false until there is evidence that it is false.
I assume something has no factual basis until there is proof for it. My problem with belief in the afterlife, is that people are assuming it's true until proven otherwise. It basically unprovable, so it shouldn't exist in either column.
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