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Old 14th May 2017, 11:11   #7661
Nexxo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risky View Post
That looks so like a wild assertion without any basis thrown in the middle of a more reasonably argued point.
How's your German?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankfurter Allgemeine
May schlug außerdem vor, die Rechte von Unionsbürgern auf der Insel und von Briten in Europa gleich beim nächsten Europäischen Rat Ende Juni zu klären, nur zwei Wochen nach der von ihr angesetzten Unterhauswahl. Allerdings würden Unionsbürger dann nicht anders behandelt als andere Drittstaatler auch. Die EU will hingegen möglichst viele Rechte erhalten; ihre Unterhändler gehen von wochenlangen, technischen Vorbereitungen aus. 
Also consider: Theresa May was actually **** at her job as Home Secretary. She was supposed to control immigration and she utterly failed. Non-EU immigration --the one where she had total control-- has been persistently in the 300,000's and there are no mechanisms at all to keep track of EU immigration. When the EU asked for a list of EU immigrants resident in the UK earlier this year, the Home Office couldn't comply. The EU has been fairly incredulous about this. There is no formal mechanism to process residency for EU nationals (the 85-page form really being designed for non-EU immigrants). She has demonstrated no competence on the complexities of immigration. She actually has no clue.

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Lets look at the practical politics of this. Yes seem that the referendum showed that voters seem to be worried about immigration. Some might rationally point out that in their trade or sector, migration from the EU has increased competition and help wages down, some as they are just afraid of the future in general. But what showed in polling and when questioned in general is that there are very few people that want the specific EU immigrants that they know day to day "sent home" as funnily enough, they actually have plenty in common with them after all. So while bashing immigration is seen as a way of pulling UKIP voters to the conservatives, anything that resulted in actual deportations of EU nationals that are working here would not go down that well at all.

People may go on about the Daily Mail, as if it controlled the "vast ignorant masses" and I'm sure it is pretty hysterical at times, but if you lay aside the cliche of the red faced mail reader foaming at the mouth over the lasted EU special, I would still hold that there is a general sense of decency here and the country at large would not stand for the forcible removal of huge numbers of people that as individuals are part of their communities.

You may think less of people here or not, but I don't think they are monsters and I don't think they are in thrall to the Mail editorial team either.
I think that people are people. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would let it happen. Most may feel some anger perhaps, but look at what the Conservatives have been getting away with over the last near decade. Let's take that darling of the public, the NHS: in February 2017, 54,492 people waited on trolleys for more than four hours for a hospital bed – a rise of 592% since February 2011. Ambulance service performance is the worst it has ever been, and thousands of children are refused mental health care every year due to inadequate provision. There are about 25,000 vacant nursing posts and fewer GPs per head than there were five years ago. The Red Cross described the situation in hospitals last winter as a “humanitarian crisis” and research published by the Royal Society of Medicine linked 30,000 excess deaths in 2015 to cuts in health and social care spending. Where's the outrage?

Instead Theresa May is running a snap election campaign on the most vacuous of pretexts, and they are heading for a landslide again.

So I think that when the UK government decides to take away our residence rights and starts booting us out of the country (starting, of course, with the poorest and least skilled), the electorate will just stand by and let it happen. It may even cheer it on.

Another interesting factoid: just as the Home Office urges EU citizens not to apply for permanent residency because it cannot process the number of applications, it also quietly changed the forms and application rules to make the process simpler. It did not announce that. So although it is starting to comply with EU demands that the process is made fairer and simpler (as it is for Brits in the EU), it is also actively trying to steer EU citizens away from finding out.

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Well Orwell was taking about communism as that was main form of totalitarianism at the time he wrote it but what is the connection you are implying? Other than there is a government here that you don't agree with? They don't control the media, the security services are busy enough with people that are trying to blow us up. Okay there isn't much of an opposition at the moment, but that's their choice, not the fault of the Government.
It is pretty obvious that there are close ties between politicians, corporations and the media, which are often owned by large business interests. Just who owns the tabloids in the UK again? We also see the government putting pressure on the BBC about its 'negative' reporting on Brexit. There has been a selective deletion of articles from the archives of tabloids when they become a bit awkward for the ruling party. Although you may argue that the media don't control the masses, they sure as hell influence it.

The UK also has the Investigatory Powers Bill and the most CCTV in any country in the world.

Then there is the current cult of personality in Theresa May's campaign, the pretext of 'austerity' and the illusion of mass immigration and now "war" with the EU to justify a persistent lowering of the standards of living of the population (keep them deprived, keep them dumb, keep them tired) while a privileged few achieve pharaoic levels of wealth, the maintenance of a class system, the with-us-or-against-us doublespeak and doublethink present in political rhetoric and in the tabloids' Two Minute Hate.

Thing is, Nineteen Eighty-Four was far from subtle because it had to make an important point. But it wasn't about communism; that was just the allegorical setting; it was a study of the mechanics of authoritarianism in general, and how humanity is at risk of simply accommodating to that. What the novel described was the end game of a long, subtle process of manipulation that is present in most politics today.

If you want to read another allegorical novel on the same themes, read Shades of Grey by Jasper Fforde (no, it hasn't got porn in it). It's less blunt but it makes some interesting points about totalitarianism, class systems and social mobility.
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Old 14th May 2017, 12:14   #7662
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7734941.html

rather entertaining but she does have a very valid point
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Old 14th May 2017, 12:47   #7663
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7734941.html

rather entertaining but she does have a very valid point
Well it sounds like he was winging it and she called him. I don't hold him in high regard.
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Old 14th May 2017, 17:06   #7664
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^^^ And there's my point. After I proved what you first considered a wild assertion that Theresa May planned to sacrifice all UK immigrants' rights in the EU so she could do the same with EU immigrants here, your mind just accommodated it. There was no: "What, really?!". You just acknowledged the fact and moved on (that's not a criticism btw, that's being human).

Similarly, the electorate will simply accommodate when EU immigrants start to get pushed out of the country.
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Old 14th May 2017, 17:42   #7665
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Similarly, the electorate will simply accommodate when EU immigrants start to get pushed out of the country.
That is only relevant if it actually comes to that.

From last October:

Quote:
All EU nationals currently living in Britain will be allowed to stay following Brexit, after the Home Office discovered that five in six could not legally be deported.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...be-given-amne/
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Old 14th May 2017, 18:06   #7666
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The article is incorrect. It assumes that EU immigrants will have individual “acquired rights” under the 1969 Vienna Convention, which means they can stay. But the Vienna convention does not apply to citizens or international organisations; only to treaties between nation states, and under specific conditions which would be overridden by Article 50.

Quote:
These consequences are, however, prefaced by the words ‘unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree’. There is, therefore, a real risk that Vienna Convention, art 70 would not, in fact, apply on the basis either that:
  • the withdrawal agreement would ‘otherwise’ provide and, therefore, override the general rule laid down by Vienna Convention, art 70, or 
  • in absence of a withdrawal agreement, Art 50 TEU, in fact, would be held to ‘otherwise’ provide and, therefore, lead to a cessation of all rights and obligations under the treaties on expiry of the deadline provided for (two years unless extended)
However, even if Vienna Convention, art 70 were to apply, it is plainly:
  • operative on the international law plane only (and it is, therefore, unclear on what basis it could be enforced through the English courts), and 
  • addressed at the position of the ‘parties’ to the terminated treaty—ie the states which are parties to the EU treaties (and perhaps the EU itself)
It is not, in fact, concerned with the position of individuals and their rights at all and, in so far as an EU citizen resident in the UK would seek to rely on Vienna Convention, art 70, that would have to be on the basis that denial of a right of residence in the UK (by way of example) would be contrary to a ‘right, obligation or legal situation’ of her home Member State (rather than herself).
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Old 14th May 2017, 18:35   #7667
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Similarly, the electorate will simply accommodate when EU immigrants start to get pushed out of the country.
There's not much else they can do, the votes been cast and if anyone speaks out against that their labeled as unpatriotic saboteurs and public enemies who are acting against society.

Besides EU immigrants will never get pushed out of the country as we don't have a clue how many are hear, who they are, or how long they've been hear because governments (of all colours) didn't bother with either entry or exit checks.

As we only have two patrol boats to guard the coastline and a boarder force whose had their budget cut by two thirds we have to depend on a wing and a prayer that illegal immigrants don't use any of the hundreds of unattended airports across the UK and instead see the vans carrying billboards telling illegal immigrants to leave or that there'll be a media outcry about something.
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Old 14th May 2017, 19:29   #7668
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That is true: there is not much the electorate will feel it can do.

I suspect that EU immigrants will not exactly be rounded up and put on trains (they never run on time for starters), but I can imagine that they may make it harder to stay by changing the rules, and will pick on some mediapathic vulnerable groups: those who are poorest, least skilled, most dispensable and easy to get rid of. It all depends on how good a 'deal' the UK feels it will get.
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Old 14th May 2017, 19:46   #7669
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In other EU news - Poland is again angry with France and Macrons comments about their country
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Old 14th May 2017, 20:23   #7670
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Hardly suprising when the religious nut jobs are in charge.
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Old 14th May 2017, 20:58   #7671
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Also in other EU News, China to pump billions into Greece:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ch...-idUSKBN18903I
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Old 14th May 2017, 21:00   #7672
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Hardly suprising when the religious nut jobs are in charge.
There was this fly-on-the-wall documentary following a specialist cleaning company that does murder and suicide scenes, homes where bodies have been found decaying after X months etc.

They often clean rentals that have been abandoned or where people have been evicted, and the place usually is an unimaginable mess. Once a cleaner fished a bible out of the putrid wall-to-wall mess covering the entire floor up to knee height. "There's always a bible", he observed.

This has sort of become a saying between my wife and me.
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Old 14th May 2017, 21:02   #7673
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Also in other EU News, China to pump billions into Greece:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ch...-idUSKBN18903I
Ah, China is buying another country.

UK next.
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Old 14th May 2017, 21:04   #7674
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In the recent `terror` attacks - There's always a passport....
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Old 14th May 2017, 21:26   #7675
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Ah, China is buying another country.

UK next.
Thought the Saudis had beat them to it...
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Old 14th May 2017, 21:27   #7676
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^^^ And there's my point. After I proved what you first considered a wild assertion that Theresa May planned to sacrifice all UK immigrants' rights in the EU so she could do the same with EU immigrants here, your mind just accommodated it. There was no: "What, really?!". You just acknowledged the fact and moved on (that's not a criticism btw, that's being human).

Similarly, the electorate will simply accommodate when EU immigrants start to get pushed out of the country.
You proved what?!? Definitely lost me there.
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Old 15th May 2017, 00:37   #7677
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I'm not disputing that it is bad for anyone to still be using an antique software like XP.

But keep in mind that the patch for newer windows versions was only released in march 2017 and given the importance of the NHS they most likely wouldn't have had the patch installed yet if they had been on a newer version of Windows as with systems that critical it takes weeks of validation before rolling out an update to avoid any unintended consequences of updating.

.
In 2017 you can't say a windows system is critical and leave it unpatched. A large organisation needs to have a way of deploying critical updates urgently when needed. Particularly when the OS is so long out of the support window.

This was a known issue three years ago
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-public-sector
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...t_few_breaths/

If this was a commercial organisation heads would roll. To run a system so far beyond the support window and then not patch it is crazy.
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Old 15th May 2017, 00:46   #7678
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Good analysis https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...bour-manifesto
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Old 15th May 2017, 08:20   #7679
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If this was a commercial organisation heads would roll. To run a system so far beyond the support window and then not patch it is crazy.
It's even more crazy that a government organisation has been hording zero day exploits instead of practicing responsible disclosure, a patch to fix this exploit could have been released while XP was in its extended support phase, that's not to say running XP wasn't a silly thing to do however when you spend so little on health services trade offs tend to be made.

In this case it was patient care vs updating systems that were working perfectly well.

If this was a commercial organisation questions would be getting asked about why the bosses allowed one department to put the whole organisation at risk.
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Old 15th May 2017, 08:25   #7680
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Originally Posted by Risky View Post
If this was a commercial organisation heads would roll. To run a system so far beyond the support window and then not patch it is crazy.
If the NHS was a commercial organisation, it would be running Windows 7 on all systems. Oh, and people would have to pay for their healthcare. YMMV.

As Corky42 suggests, if the NHS spent more resources in its IT, people would be complaining that computers that are running perfectly adequately are getting prioritised over patient care. We have many bits to manage in the NHS, and like the cogs of a clock all are important in making the whole mechanism function. But people don't necessarily understand the relevance of each cog; all they see is the movement of the hands (i.e. the resulting patient care).
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