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Old 15th May 2017, 08:46   #7681
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
It's even more crazy that a government organisation has been hording zero day exploits instead of practicing responsible disclosure, a patch to fix this exploit could have been released while XP was in its extended support phase, that's not to say running XP wasn't a silly thing to do however when you spend so little on health services trade offs tend to be made.

In this case it was patient care vs updating systems that were working perfectly well.

If this was a commercial organisation questions would be getting asked about why the bosses allowed one department to put the whole organisation at risk.
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If the NHS was a commercial organisation, it would be running Windows 7 on all systems. Oh, and people would have to pay for their healthcare. YMMV.

As Corky42 suggests, if the NHS spent more resources in its IT, people would be complaining that computers that are running perfectly adequately are getting prioritised over patient care. We have many bits to manage in the NHS, and like the cogs of a clock all are important in making the whole mechanism function. But people don't necessarily understand the relevance of each cog; all they see is the movement of the hands (i.e. the resulting patient care).

Look the NHS has an non-trivial IT budget and someone is responsible for how that is spent. Someone or some group has taken the decision not to update the OS and not to keep it's patches up to date and spend on other stuff. If they've been not patching their PCs I'm surprised it lasted this long. As you see from the links I posted the issue with XP was known several years ago.

I'll take a wager that Nexxo has see money spent on sillier IT priorities than patching the OS, if the IT function is in any way similar to others I've encountered.
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Old 15th May 2017, 09:21   #7682
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Depends what you call "silly". In the NHS there has been more emphasis on timely and seamless communication within and between health and social care agencies and increased informational governance, with a new Data Protection Act (the General Data Protection Regulation 2017) just coming in to complicate matters a bit. We are moving to paperless note keeping, computerised medication recording and tracking and digital imaging and at the same time trying to get hundreds of legacy systems across NHS Trusts, GP surgeries, social care agencies and the police to talk to each other securely --and respecting guidelines on different levels of confidentiality and need-to-know--, each of which uses all sorts of mission critical software that may or may not have been updated to work with the latest OS.

I am currently involved in trying to get our acute hospital Trust notes system to talk with our mental health Trust notes system. This is considered a simple problem, but even for a geek like me who can talk meaningfully with IT staff, it is pretty complex just to work out the basic logistics. You can imagine what it is like for the IT staff to actually make it work --securely.

At the same time we are engaged in a digital arms race with hackers, validating and rolling out patches all the time without crashing the system and are trying to stick to a very tight budget while getting fleeced by "approved NHS providers". Such fun. So I think that you are possibly not quite appreciating the complexities that we are dealing with here.
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Old 15th May 2017, 10:08   #7683
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Depends what you call "silly". In the NHS there is more emphasis on timely and seamless communication within and between health and social care agencies and increased informational governance, with a new Data Protection Act (the General Data Protection Regulation 2017) just coming in. We are moving to paperless note keeping, medication recording and tracking and digital imaging and at the same time trying to get hundreds of legacy systems across NHS Trusts, GP surgeries, social care agencies and the police to talk to each other securely, each of which uses all sorts of mission critical software that may or may not have been updated to work with the latest OS.

I am currently involved in trying to get our acute hospital Trust notes system to talk with our mental health Trust notes system. This is considered a simple problem, and even for a geek like me it is pretty complex just to work out the basic logistics. You can imagine what it is like for the IT staff to actually make it work --securely.

At the same time we are engaged in a digital arms race with hackers. Such fun. So I think that you are possibly not quite appreciating the complexities that we are dealing with here.
Well I was used to IT in large organisations. As you will know well the desktop platform will be maintained by one area and the application development by others. The Project an applications teams should have a roadmap for the desktop to determine what platform they are on in years to come.

If there was a concious decision to stick with XP till some future date (I assume there was is planned replacement date) then it's hard to justify the decision not to patch it. It's not like this issue came up now. the articles were from several years ago. Some quite adequately paid IT management and any number of not exactly cheap IT consultants are no doubt involved and as I said, if this was your bank and it got hacked, you'd expect so see heads roll and some people who know their own job recruited.


This isn't anti-NHS, more that I have a rather low view of large IT functions work for themselves rather than the organisation as a whole.
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Old 15th May 2017, 10:23   #7684
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Look the NHS has an non-trivial IT budget and someone is responsible for how that is spent. Someone or some group has taken the decision not to update the OS and not to keep it's patches up to date and spend on other stuff. If they've been not patching their PCs I'm surprised it lasted this long. As you see from the links I posted the issue with XP was known several years ago.

I'll take a wager that Nexxo has see money spent on sillier IT priorities than patching the OS, if the IT function is in any way similar to others I've encountered.
IDK what the NHS's IT budget is but based on Michael Fallon's statement at the weekend that they were going to spend an extra £50 million I'd guess it's woefully inadequate.

There's also the problem of what the government considers national and local responsibilities, we know the decision to cut the extended support contract short came from Jeremy Hunt and that he told Trusts if they wanted it they'd have to pay for it from their own budgets, and when having to decided between patient care or upgrading a currently working system the choice is obvious.

Yes someone or some group decided not to update the OS but when the percentage of GDP you're spending on health care is falling you have to make choices about what's more important, patient care or updating an OS and logically patient care came first.

The blame for this lies entirely with our security services and IMO saying the NHS, Microsoft, or anyone else is to blame is missing the bigger picture.
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Old 15th May 2017, 12:36   #7685
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In 2017 you can't say a windows system is critical and leave it unpatched. A large organisation needs to have a way of deploying critical updates urgently when needed. Particularly when the OS is so long out of the support window.
Plenty of big organisations as well as companies say otherwise.

Remember for example a couple years ago when tons of companies refused to move away from Internet Explorer 6 because a lot of their proprietary internal software relied on it and keeping IE6 in return left them vulnerable?

I'm not saying it is the right thing to do, I'm simply jaded enough by the legacy of IT related decisions in large organisations to accept it as an inevitability.
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Old 15th May 2017, 12:47   #7686
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No one listens to an IT guy telling them somethings going to go wrong until it actually goes wrong, i dare say Talk Talk's IT guys were warning about security issues for years and got ignored because things like that cost money, money that most people don't see the value in spending until after an event.

Just like most people don't bother with bugler alarms until after they've been burgled.
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Old 15th May 2017, 13:54   #7687
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wrong tab. derp
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Old 15th May 2017, 15:10   #7688
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Quote:
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No one listens to an IT guy telling them somethings going to go wrong until it actually goes wrong
Indeed, someone suggests something, it gets assessed by seventeen different places each one of which exaggerates risks and costs so they can shoot it down and get a bonus for saving the company money and that is how we end up with lumbering giants where it can easily take a month to fix a typo on their website and over a decade to upgrade an OS.
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Old 15th May 2017, 17:01   #7689
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
No one listens to an IT guy telling them somethings going to go wrong until it actually goes wrong, i dare say Talk Talk's IT guys were warning about security issues for years and got ignored because things like that cost money, money that most people don't see the value in spending until after an event.

Just like most people don't bother with bugler alarms until after they've been burgled.
Sounds like you're describing some kind of "expert" ay? You know what we think of them experts....
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Old 15th May 2017, 18:04   #7690
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This is considered a simple problem, but even for a geek like me who can talk meaningfully with IT staff, it is pretty complex just to work out the basic logistics.
No matter how well you believe you have described the functionality and conditions, you haven't. If you had described the requirements adequately you would basically be writing the code. That's why its important not to let them go off into a corner for a couple of months and come back with what they thought you thought you meant.
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Old 15th May 2017, 19:40   #7691
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Yeah, it's like that well-known cartoon:



Come to think about it, that probably applies to Brexit as well...
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Old 15th May 2017, 20:36   #7692
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Quote:
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Yeah, it's like that well-known cartoon:
Come to think about it, that probably applies to Brexit as well...
Yup, that's software.

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Old 15th May 2017, 21:04   #7693
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LOL. Had to fix the image link, but the 'no image' pictograms works just as well.
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Old 16th May 2017, 10:28   #7694
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Cool and funny at the same time.



Quote:
The ‘Farage’ knob “distorts (the truth) the more you increase”, the ‘Recession’ knob “helps you cut through the mix”, while the ‘Racism’ knob is the actually the Volume control.
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Old 16th May 2017, 13:42   #7695
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Meanwhile in Wales:

Quote:
Plaid Cymru has launched a manifesto based around more devolution and a fight to protect funding and rights after Brexit, with its leader, Leanne Wood, saying only her party can protect Wales against an otherwise dominant Conservative government.

The 51-page manifesto, titled Action Plan 2017, calls for Wales to maintain free trading links with the rest of Europe after departure from the EU, and for guarantees over the £680m of annual funding a year from EU sources.

It also seeks a unilateral pledge on the rights of overseas Europeans living and working in Wales, and a proper post-Brexit deal for Welsh agriculture and industry.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-manifesto
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Old 16th May 2017, 15:52   #7696
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They were a remain party and still are - BUT look at the local elections ; Labour lost to the gain the the Conservatives and Plaid Cyrmu
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Old 16th May 2017, 16:19   #7697
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I don't have a problem with them being a remain party, I just don't see any of their brexit related promises as achievable as Wales won't get much of a say in brexit negotiations.

Talking of brexit negotiations:

Quote:
An EU-Singapore free trade deal cannot take effect fully unless parliaments in all 28 member states approve it, the EU's top court has decided.
The legal opinion at the European Court of Justice (ECJ) could delay progress towards a UK free trade deal with the EU during the Brexit negotiations.
The European Commission negotiates trade deals on behalf of the EU.
But the ECJ says the EU-Singapore deal, concluded in 2014, has parts that affect powers enjoyed by member states.

Indirect "portfolio" investments and commercial arbitration are issues that need national approval, the ruling said.
The verdict makes it more likely that any UK-EU free trade deal will have to be ratified by national and regional parliaments in the EU.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39934196
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Old 16th May 2017, 17:14   #7698
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If anything ^^that's^^ going to play into the hands of the hard leavers as it makes the possibility of walking away without a deal, because the EU is being nasty to us, more likely.

It's also going to play into the narrative that i believe we'll see much more of in the coming years, that all this hardship you're going through is only because of the EU, keep your chin up you plucky Brits and invoke that Churchill spirit.
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Old 16th May 2017, 17:34   #7699
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Indeed, "whaahhh whaaahh whaaahhhh the EU is being mean to us" is what May and co are going to scream from the rooftops when in fact the EU is just being consistent and applying the same standards to us as they did to Canada.
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Old 16th May 2017, 19:10   #7700
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Other news agencies have a more positive take on this and think it would make an FTA deal easier. I suspect it won't change things one way or the other.

I don't think that Theresa May is just going to walk away without a deal. It would not just be an economic car crash --it would be a motorway pile-up of epic proportions. The sudden change would actually crash the economy and I think that there would be a lot of powerful people determined to have her head on a silver platter.

Moreover when economic hardship bites, people will blame the EU, but they will also expect the UK government to make it all better (because people are perverse like that). And if it can't she will be out on her ear in no time. Of course it is very likely that the electorate would next vote a mini-Trump in office instead (Arron Banks? Paul Dacre?) and that is when I will be packing my bags and head for the nearest plane out of town.

But this is Theresa May: the art of loudly saying one thing and quietly doing another.
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