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Old Yesterday, 14:30   #7061
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
It does, as long as the community can monitor that its members do not draw from the common pool more than they contribute. This requires it to be relatively small --something like 100-200 members tops. The Amish are a nice example of a working communist system.
Indeed, see Dunbar's Number
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Old Yesterday, 14:31   #7062
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^^^ Exactemundo.
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Old Yesterday, 15:44   #7063
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Viper - one main critique of Marx is he had no understanding nor knowledge of globalisation, and thus as you said , his work is bound by time
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Old Yesterday, 15:59   #7064
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^^^ Exactemundo.
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Old Yesterday, 16:31   #7065
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Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
And Marx quite clearly criticises capitalism as an economic system that has been separated from politics and ethics and defines his 'better economic system' as one that serves the needs of society (the common good).
The seperation of the economic system from politics and ethics is exactly the reason I critizise the most and is the reason why I think that the economic system is the key to fixing all the politic and social problems.

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I have. I was a che guevara t-shirt wearing, long-haired, scruffy, angry teen. Das Kapital is deeply political, just look at his views on the socioeconomic alienation borne of specialisation, commodity fetishisation and how it impacts marriage, or the ideological value judgements that relate back to the economic system. (I think I know most of the german words for these, but I'm not going to embarrass myself in an attempt to spell them)

However, I now believe Marx is...simply outdated. He never had to consider the prospect of automation, general AI or even the globalised economy which pits all global workers in competition with each other. In fact, the only way that his proposed solutions in the communist manifesto would be workable now is to first have a global government to match the global economic system (Of which, the EU is a stepping stone).

Marx isn't a prophet, he's just a guide. In fact he said so himself:

Philosophers, until now, have only interpreted the world in various ways; The point now, however, is to change it
Yes, the economic system isn't what it used to be 150 years ago, but it's astonishing that most of the stuff Marx analyzed and/or predicted are still valid today. The globalisation made all of what he critizised only worse, and that's why I don't like it and want to see a more regional approach again, where the people themselves have more influence over all of it.

On a side-note I was born and raised in Germany and german is basically my mothers tongue. I read Das Kapital in it's original version, not the one revised by Engels and not the ones with countless footnotes by the socialists. The original version doesn't include alot of the social ideas and or politics, which were added by Engels.

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It does, as long as the community can monitor that its members do not draw from the common pool more than they contribute. This requires it to be relatively small --something like 100-200 members tops. The Amish are a nice example of a working communist system.
And that's why I stated two pages ago allready, that all this supranational stuff doesn't work or benefit most of the people and that we need to go back to a more regional approach again.
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Old Yesterday, 16:46   #7066
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Right so you propose we fix all the politic and social problems by fixing the economic system, yet you also propose we break apart the politic and social groups into smaller regions, so please do tell me how you're going to get all those disparate groups to agree upon a single economic system?

How you're going to prevent foreign multinational companies from playing one group of against another, how you're going to prevent one group playing another group of against a third?

The solution you propose would only exacerbate the problem in the economic system.
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Old Yesterday, 17:15   #7067
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The biggest and single most significant problem with Marx today is his supposition that `people` will revolt against the elite and will want communism :



whilst that might have been the case 150 years ago (especially in England around the 1830`s and 1840`s), the globalised world is different.
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Old Yesterday, 17:26   #7068
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
The seperation of the economic system from politics and ethics is exactly the reason I critizise the most and is the reason why I think that the economic system is the key to fixing all the politic and social problems.
You're missing the point. You said that in Das Kapital Marx does not mention politics and society once. In fact his whole critique of capitalism is from a socio-political perspective.

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And that's why I stated two pages ago allready, that all this supranational stuff doesn't work or benefit most of the people and that we need to go back to a more regional approach again.
It has already been explained why that does not work. I live in a city of 1.1 million inhabitants. If split up in about 10.000 self-governing communities, how are they going to work together to form one functioning city? You think that a country of 600.000 small, disparate communities could form a coherent nation and organise resistance against exploitation by global corporations?
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Old Yesterday, 18:30   #7069
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The biggest and single most significant problem with Marx today is his supposition that `people` will revolt against the elite and will want communism.
I'd say the biggest problem with the communist system is that it can only exist in isolation, the moment you introduce another system people naturally start to exploit it, play one person, group, or system against another for their own gain.
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Old Yesterday, 19:21   #7070
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Le Penn and Macron are into the second round
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Old Yesterday, 19:50   #7071
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That sounds like bad news for Le Pen.
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Old Yesterday, 20:00   #7072
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I wouldn't count on anything in the current climate.
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Old Yesterday, 20:09   #7073
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Le Penn and Macron are into the second round
That's OK. Macron will win and win well. Best of the candidates, IMO. I didn't like Fillon on Russia.
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Old Yesterday, 20:18   #7074
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That's OK. Macron will win and win well. Best of the candidates, IMO. I didn't like Fillon on Russia.
Don't count on it - Trump was elected after all. Macron winning will not be `good` for brexit
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Old Yesterday, 20:42   #7075
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Le Pen winning would not be good for Brexit. It would make the EU close ranks even more. If Macron wins the EU will feel more confident and can afford economic considerations to weigh against political ones.

But either way, the UK government already knows that it will have to make big concessions. This is why May is seeking to secure the long-term position of the Tory party in a snap election.
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Old Yesterday, 20:53   #7076
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Don't count on it - Trump was elected after all. Macron winning will not be `good` for brexit
In French election system Trump would have lost too.
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Old Yesterday, 21:05   #7077
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The kicker is: even if Le Pen wins, she cannot do any of the things she promised. Frexit? Not constitutionally possible. Ditch the Euro? 70% of the French electorate wants to keep it.

The thing with radical policies is: they may get you votes, but they aren't actually possible to implement.
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Old Yesterday, 21:12   #7078
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The kicker is: even if Le Pen wins, she cannot do any of the things she promised. Frexit? Not constitutionally possible. Ditch the Euro? 70% of the French electorate wants to keep it.

The thing with radical policies is: they may get you votes, but they aren't actually possible to implement.
Either way a lot depends on how the parliamentary elections go in June. Even if Le Pew won the presidency, she might not have the parliamentary support to do anything [iirc right now FN have 2 MPs, out of 577].

And if Macaroni wins, if he ends up with a hostile parliament, he's not going to be able to achieve much.


Also the Brexit mob couldn't/can't deliver most of the **** they promised, people still voted for it though.
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Old Yesterday, 21:30   #7079
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Frexit? Not constitutionally possible..
My arse. Surely the French have a way to modify their constitution. I doubt she could just pull France out on her own authority but I assume she could call a referendum just like the UK if she wanted to. If she could win an election she could win a referendum to leave the EU.
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Old Yesterday, 21:42   #7080
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She would need to change article 89 of the French constitution which requires both the national assembly then the senate to approve the change , then either a referendum or 3/5 majority in congress.

So no , not impossible , just a very big ask for a party with 2 MP`s and 2 Senators out of 900
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