Intel 45nm technology overview - bit-tech.net Forums

Tim S · 27th Jan 2007, 05:12

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/200...verview/1.html

Gravemind123 · 27th Jan 2007, 05:30

Looks like good stuff, I sort of browsed the more informational parts, but it shows how complex our little CPUs are.

Tyinsar · 27th Jan 2007, 07:45

Thanks for the info.

Just speculation here but if Intel were to underclock and undervolt these then go into the mini-ITX market at a performance level at least equal to Via's best could they make it passively cooled? - I'm not expecting an answer but wondering how fast they could go with passive cooling. (I still remember a time before CPUs even had heat sinks)

BioSniper · 27th Jan 2007, 07:59

Great article Tim.
Technically written whilst maintaining simplicity and remaining interesting

As Tyinsar says, what kind of thermal implications is 45nm going to have for laptop chips? One can only guess lower heat and less power meaning better battery life which then brings us back nicely to the article that Brett wrote

eek · 27th Jan 2007, 08:54

Sweet, I think that has to rate as one of my fav bit articles ever!

I've always had a strong interest in transistors since studying them at uni so it's good to keep up-to-date!!

When do you reckon these new chips will start shipping? 2h07?

oasked · 27th Jan 2007, 09:38

Are these CPUs going to have HyperThreading? The Inquirer had a story saying that they would, but we all know what the inquirer is like.

I had hoped that all that HT nonsense was dead.

samkiller42 · 27th Jan 2007, 10:36

Tim, you are quite possibly mad, making this thread at 10 past 5 this morning

Anyway, I was impressed with the new mobile idea, it would mean laptops and alike would last even longer than current core 2's

Sam

Ramble · 27th Jan 2007, 11:09

Seeing what Intel's doing next is always interesting, it blows my mind to see just how clever Intel's techs are and how much they spend on R&D.
Looking at the die for Penryn, it looks like they'll be using the same sort of idea for the quad cores as Kentsfield, it's only a two core die.

On a related topic a friend of mine was doing a presentation on Intel (more importantly, SiO₂ transistors. He showed a future possible design that was pretty clever, I'll try and find the image for you if I can.

Mankz · 27th Jan 2007, 11:26

hold on, am I right in thnking that 45nm should have a lower TDP than 65nm..??

Tim S · 27th Jan 2007, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mankz_91

hold on, am I right in thnking that 45nm should have a lower TDP than 65nm..??

Yes, at the same clock speed it will. Intel is happy with it's current power envelopes (and doesn't know how AMD's K8L is doing in terms of raw performance) so it is maintaining the same power envelopes and increasing performance.

Tim S · 27th Jan 2007, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by eek

Sweet, I think that has to rate as one of my fav bit articles ever!

I've always had a strong interest in transistors since studying them at uni so it's good to keep up-to-date!!

When do you reckon these new chips will start shipping? 2h07?

Thanks

The chips will start shipping in the second half of this year. Intel hasn't committed to a date yet (at least, they haven't given us a firm date yet). After all, the chips are still in a test phase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oasked

Are these CPUs going to have HyperThreading? The Inquirer had a story saying that they would, but we all know what the inquirer is like.

I had hoped that all that HT nonsense was dead.

I think I am fairly safe to put my ball firmly in the "there isn't a cat in hell's chance" court. That's at least the case with Penryn because it's based on Core. Next generation microarchitecture is a different thing entirely though and I can't really speculate.

r4tch3t · 27th Jan 2007, 11:46

Wouldn't it be better if they went a little bit of AMDs way? With all that cache taking up so much room... More space for actual processing, less space for bulky cache. How much do they really need that cache?

Tim S · 27th Jan 2007, 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyinsar

Thanks for the info.

Just speculation here but if Intel were to underclock and undervolt these then go into the mini-ITX market at a performance level at least equal to Via's best could they make it passively cooled? - I'm not expecting an answer but wondering how fast they could go with passive cooling. (I still remember a time before CPUs even had heat sinks)

I think that there is definitely the scope for these chips to be put in mini-ITX boards. I believe performance would be high too - I'm hoping they'd be ULV (ultra low voltage) chips.

The other thing that I'm interested to find out is whether we'll see the same ULV dual-core parts (hopefully with similar performance to the current ULV models) with massively lower TDPs than current models, thus improving battery life massively in notebooks. I'd love to see something like the Sony VGA-SZ3XP (or the next incarnation) with the Santa Rosa platform and 10 hours+ battery life. It's already doing 7 1/2 hours battery life with a 2.13GHz Core 2.

Tim S · 27th Jan 2007, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by r4tch3t

Wouldn't it be better if they went a little bit of AMDs way? With all that cache taking up so much room... More space for actual processing, less space for bulky cache. How much do they really need that cache?

I'm assuming you're meaning dedicated L1, dedicated L2 and shared L3 caches? I don't know - I reckon it's something we'll see in the next-gen microarchitecture when Intel's also got a native quad-core chip.

r4tch3t · 27th Jan 2007, 12:02

Yes, mainly the level 2 cache that takes up about half the chip, primarily for the reason that AMD chips don't seem to need all that much cache. Looking forward to the native quad cores.

Tim S · 27th Jan 2007, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by r4tch3t

Yes, mainly the level 2 cache that takes up about half the chip, primarily for the reason that AMD chips don't seem to need all that much cache. Looking forward to the native quad cores.

It's a cheap way to keep up with Moore's law - after talking with Intel and reading a bunch of additional documentation, I felt that they were a bit obsessive with Moore's law.

The reason AMD doesn't need a lot of L2 cache is because the memory controller is on-die and thus has a much lower latency. Intel obviously doesn't have that benefit, so it hides latency with large cache. Of course, the question is whether we'll see similar scaling from 4MB to 6MB as we did with 2MB vs 4MB L2, or whether that cache is added for the sake of Moore's law - we'll have to wait until we've tested the chips for the answer to that.

r4tch3t · 27th Jan 2007, 12:18

Ah right, forgot about the latencies from lack of a memory controller. I think that amount of cache won't benifit dual cores all that much, for the quad, I can see a larger benifit, but that is just direct scaling.
The new FET design is quite good, and they will most likey find more combinations, probably with just one or two atomic layer for the gate.
Any more info on how they are planning for further shrinking the nm processes? In regard to transistor design.

JADS · 27th Jan 2007, 12:26

Any word on whether they are going to start pushing up clocks again? We've been stuck on 2GHz for nearly 5 years now! I want GHz not cores

Paradigm Shifter · 27th Jan 2007, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim S

It's a cheap way to keep up with Moore's law - after talking with Intel and reading a bunch of additional documentation, I felt that they were a bit obsessive with Moore's law.

As far as I was aware, Moore has 'updated' his law at least twice since he first devised it. Mostly because earlier this decade, CPU's weren't moving as fast as were necessary to maintain it being truth.

...and who else thinks that using enormous amounts of L2 cache on the die to boost the transistor count is cheating slightly?

perplekks45 · 27th Jan 2007, 13:20

Did I miss it or is there no hint on the socket Penryn will use?

27th Jan 2007, 05:12	#1
Tim S Pewlius Caesar bit-tech Staff Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ascot, Berks Posts: 18,021	Intel 45nm technology overview http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/200...verview/1.html __________________ Tim on Twitter \| Tim's Blog \| Tim's Flickr The bit-tech Blog \| bit-tech on Twitter \| Join the bit-tech & Custom PC folding team (#35947)

27th Jan 2007, 05:30	#2
Gravemind123 avatar not found Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Elmhurst, IL, USA Posts: 1,772	Looks like good stuff, I sort of browsed the more informational parts, but it shows how complex our little CPUs are. __________________ E4400 - Asus P5B-Plus - Antec NeoHE 500 - 4GB OCZ SLI XTC - EVGA 8800GT - 250GB WD + 320GB Seagate Lian-Li PC-61 - Zalman Cooling - Creative GigaWorks T20 - AG Neovo M-17 Dell XPS M1330 - T8300 - 4GB Ram - 8400M GS - 250GB HDD

27th Jan 2007, 07:45	#3
Tyinsar 6 screens / 1 card Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: AB.CA Posts: 2,005	Thanks for the info. Just speculation here but if Intel were to underclock and undervolt these then go into the mini-ITX market at a performance level at least equal to Via's best could they make it passively cooled? - I'm not expecting an answer but wondering how fast they could go with passive cooling. (I still remember a time before CPUs even had heat sinks) __________________ It's not about how life treats you, it's about how you treat life.

27th Jan 2007, 07:59	#4
BioSniper I Mod, Therefore I Own Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere in the south Posts: 3,460	Great article Tim. Technically written whilst maintaining simplicity and remaining interesting As Tyinsar says, what kind of thermal implications is 45nm going to have for laptop chips? One can only guess lower heat and less power meaning better battery life which then brings us back nicely to the article that Brett wrote __________________ My Flickr :: Bit-tech Flickr Wii: 1792 1527 2926 7945 :: Xbox Live: BioSnipr :: PSN: Biosnipr

27th Jan 2007, 09:38	#6
oasked Stuck in the Mud Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bromley, Kent Posts: 2,552	Are these CPUs going to have HyperThreading? The Inquirer had a story saying that they would, but we all know what the inquirer is like. I had hoped that all that HT nonsense was dead. __________________ Intel i7 920 @ Stock \| 6GB Corsair DDR3\| Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5 WD640 AALS \| POV 8800GT \| Lian-Li PC65 \| Enermax 600W SLI \| Dell 2408WFP

27th Jan 2007, 08:54	#5
eek CAMRA ***. Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: in meh own little world Posts: 1,514	Sweet, I think that has to rate as one of my fav bit articles ever! I've always had a strong interest in transistors since studying them at uni so it's good to keep up-to-date!! When do you reckon these new chips will start shipping? 2h07?

27th Jan 2007, 10:36	#7
samkiller42 KEEP IT CLEAN! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Havant, Hampshire, England Posts: 3,188	Tim, you are quite possibly mad, making this thread at 10 past 5 this morning Anyway, I was impressed with the new mobile idea, it would mean laptops and alike would last even longer than current core 2's Sam __________________ The Rig: i7 920 D0, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12GB DDR3 1600mhz, BFG GTX295, Samsung 64gb SSD, WD 640gb Black, Samsung F2 Eco 1TB, Dell 3007WFP, Windows 7 RC. The Netbook: Samsung NC10 Black, Intel Atom, 2gb DDR2 Xbox Live: samkiller42¦PSN: samkiller42¦Bungie: samkiller42

27th Jan 2007, 11:09	#8
Ramble Ginger Nut Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Exeter, Devon/Wantage, Oxfordshire Posts: 5,235	Seeing what Intel's doing next is always interesting, it blows my mind to see just how clever Intel's techs are and how much they spend on R&D. Looking at the die for Penryn, it looks like they'll be using the same sort of idea for the quad cores as Kentsfield, it's only a two core die. On a related topic a friend of mine was doing a presentation on Intel (more importantly, SiO₂ transistors. He showed a future possible design that was pretty clever, I'll try and find the image for you if I can. __________________ Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky are beaming down to the planet. Guess who's not coming back.

27th Jan 2007, 11:46	#12
r4tch3t hmmmm.... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,885	Wouldn't it be better if they went a little bit of AMDs way? With all that cache taking up so much room... More space for actual processing, less space for bulky cache. How much do they really need that cache? __________________ Fight my Brute The quantum limit of reality might be scaled up because we're all holograms. Obviously. Once more we see that sufficiently advanced physics is indistinguishable from getting really stoned. From here

27th Jan 2007, 12:02	#15
r4tch3t hmmmm.... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,885	Yes, mainly the level 2 cache that takes up about half the chip, primarily for the reason that AMD chips don't seem to need all that much cache. Looking forward to the native quad cores. __________________ Fight my Brute The quantum limit of reality might be scaled up because we're all holograms. Obviously. Once more we see that sufficiently advanced physics is indistinguishable from getting really stoned. From here

27th Jan 2007, 12:18	#17
r4tch3t hmmmm.... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,885	Ah right, forgot about the latencies from lack of a memory controller. I think that amount of cache won't benifit dual cores all that much, for the quad, I can see a larger benifit, but that is just direct scaling. The new FET design is quite good, and they will most likey find more combinations, probably with just one or two atomic layer for the gate. Any more info on how they are planning for further shrinking the nm processes? In regard to transistor design. __________________ Fight my Brute The quantum limit of reality might be scaled up because we're all holograms. Obviously. Once more we see that sufficiently advanced physics is indistinguishable from getting really stoned. From here

27th Jan 2007, 12:26	#18
JADS Et arma et verba vulnerant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 2,919	Any word on whether they are going to start pushing up clocks again? We've been stuck on 2GHz for nearly 5 years now! I want GHz not cores __________________ [AMD A64 2800+ + Zalman 7700][MSI K8N Neo Platinum][1GB Corsair PC3200][Leadtek Geforce 6600GT][Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 80GB + Maxtor Diamond Max Plus10 200GB + Maxtor Diamond Max16 120GB][Plextor PX-716 DVD-RW + 2x Plextor Premium 52x32x52 CD-RW + 16x Samsung DVD][Coolermaster ATC-201 BXT][Antec TruePower 430][Dell 2405FPW + Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070u][Logitech MX1000][Matias Tactile Pro][Griffin Technology PowerMate Black] Email Me

27th Jan 2007, 13:20	#20
perplekks45 BSc... finally Join Date: May 2004 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,350	Did I miss it or is there no hint on the socket Penryn will use? __________________ "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far." Blame it on Cheaps! [now a social group]