PC Audio 101 - bit-tech.net Forums

Tim S · 12th Sep 2007, 11:56

http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2007/09/12/pc_audio_101/1

The MP3 is by far the most popular way to listen to music on your PC, but it's not the best way. We have a look at lossless audio and explain how to get the most out of your music.

The_Pope · 12th Sep 2007, 13:01

Quote:

Windows K-mixer needs to resample and otherwise mess with the original sound to before sending it through to your sound card. Chances are, if you’re playing CD quality audio (44kHz), Windows is resampling it to 48kHz, processing it (volume, balance, tone, etc) then resampling again back to 44kHz and sending it to your sound card.

I don't mean to be funny, cos I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this sort of thing, but after reading the above statement I had just one question: why? I *do* understand why this sort of technique is a bit rubbish, but I don't understand why it does it, especially since there are ways to avoid it doing it.

neonplanet40 · 12th Sep 2007, 13:10

I cant find the ASIO drivers for the X-Fi Fatality. Anyone know where to get them? The search engine on creatives website is woeful.

Neon

Seraphim Works · 12th Sep 2007, 13:38

Alas, if only I had the money for a low cost setup, denon amp and a couple of b&w bookshelf speakers....

Damn you Joshua Moore, now I'll end up trying to get a new audio setup as well as upgrading the pc!

stoff3r · 12th Sep 2007, 13:47

so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...

yakyb · 12th Sep 2007, 14:23

well im still using winamp2.93 and i have to say im not all that impressed by it (i only use it because its quick) ill check out foobar when i get home

Bogie · 12th Sep 2007, 14:25

I remember having ASIO drivers up before on an old creative X-Fi driver. Now they are nowhere to be seen.
Anyone have any ideas how to get ASIO working on X-Fi cards?
I have X-Fi Elite Pro?

Bogie · 12th Sep 2007, 14:27

PS. Anyone know any good foobar skins and where to get them please?

Bogie · 12th Sep 2007, 14:31

Am gonna try these:
http://www.asio4all.com/

Bogie · 12th Sep 2007, 14:36

Didn't work.

Bluephoenix · 12th Sep 2007, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogie

I remember having ASIO drivers up before on an old creative X-Fi driver. Now they are nowhere to be seen.
Anyone have any ideas how to get ASIO working on X-Fi cards?
I have X-Fi Elite Pro?

The ASIO drivers are built into the manager software with everything else.

simply set it to audio creation mode and it will change the handling to ASIO, which you can then use with the winamp plugins (then play FLAC and rock all night

)

note however that only the X-Fi Platinum and X-Fi Elite have the ASIO drivers built into the manager software, the Fatality had that removed to lower the cost compared to the Elite

wharrad · 12th Sep 2007, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoff3r

so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...

Not quite sure on the technicalities within a soundcard (does the sound get passed through a DAC, processed and then back through a DAC) but that 'should' be the best option. However, you'll then need to spend a good amount of money on an external DAC before your amp/speakers to simply get back to the quality you would have had just using the onboard DAC. Of course though with some cash an external DAC will be better... Just depends on how far you want to take it.

Oh, and people tend to state that CoAX is the better option for a digital out.... Although if the sound is passed digitally I'm not completely sure why!!

Regarding the article, congratulations! You need stones to write that... Out of all fanboy, over the top arguements I've been part of, audio always generates the most 'debated' forums!

Personally like an external Amp and bookshelf speakers on the desk over anything with PC Speakers written on them, but I'll always state that you'll never get the same quality out of a computer than you will from a good CD seperate with a brick on top. There's simply too much going on electronically in a computer. In fact, last time I was looking for a hi-fi that could be classed as in a 'sensible' budget I remember audiophiles telling me about how the circuit boards are even 3 degrees out of plain to reduce interference!

As one piece of advice I give to anyone thinking about getting better sounds from a computer - check Richersounds (if you're in the UK) and just see if you can get a basic amp and bookshelf speakers for the same price of your 'Obber loud fau1it3y edition 7.1 pc speakers'. Yeah the amp take up more space... but really not anymore than a sub and 5 other mini speakers. I'll also shave my entire body if a 7.1 set sounds better - even for movies (no comparing a 20 year old Amstrad to a 7.1 Mordaunt-Short system just to see the shaving please!).

On the otherhand however, you already have a computer if your on these forums, and so a large part of the cost is already spent and articles like this are a great way to introduce people into the audio world, who would have otherwise missed out.

Renoir · 12th Sep 2007, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pope

I don't mean to be funny, cos I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this sort of thing, but after reading the above statement I had just one question: why? I *do* understand why this sort of technique is a bit rubbish, but I don't understand why it does it, especially since there are ways to avoid it doing it.

I believe from my reading that it's due to the fact that windows mixes together all the audio streams being played on the pc e.g. music, windows sounds etc and so needs to get them all to the same sample rate. In addition I'm not sure the article was right when it said kmixer resamples from 44.1-48-44.1. I believe it merely resamples from 44.1 to 44.1. Josh am I totally wrong? In addition creative cards have traditionally resampled all 44.1 content to 48 due to the audio processor not supporting 44.1 streams natively. Not sure if that still applies for the X-Fi (think it does but is done better due to more horsepower) but it was one of the big advantages of cards based on Via envy chipsets due to them not resampling 44.1 content to 48 but rather they just sent the 44.1 straight to the dacs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoff3r

so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...

Using onboard digital per se will not avoid the kmixers resampling and in addition many onboard codecs have traditionally resampled from 44.1-48 much like the creative cards mentioned above (again not too sure about the latest codecs?)

Hope that helps

maha_x · 12th Sep 2007, 16:07

WOW

Had to register just to comment... Now I was familiar with foobar before but not asio and wow, I can tell the difference clearly now between foobar and winmediaplayer on my logitech Z3 speakers which are not exactly hifi...

I read that the audigy has quality problems cos it allways has to go internally to 48khz, so going from 44.1 to 48 was bad cos of the small difference. So now I can directly upsample to 24/96 that has plenty of detail for upsampling. Standard windoze audio sounds clearly muffled now...

Thanks alot for this info!!

Rocket733 · 12th Sep 2007, 16:07

Great guide for a beginner in computer hi-fi. Another low cost usb dac option is the silverstone EB01; while not as high end as the 0404 it does a great job for about $80 (us).

Jipa · 12th Sep 2007, 16:30

After saying this: "A few upgrades and tweaks down the line, all of my music is ripped in lossless, and in nearly all cases, the difference between 320k MP3 and FLAC is apparent" I feel I'm forced to ask you for some setup-details. I have some doubts about anyone hearing the difference, and atleast I like to hear on what kind of setup do the differences appear?

RTT · 12th Sep 2007, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by maha_x

Thanks alot for this info!!

Welcome to bit-tech

Bluephoenix · 12th Sep 2007, 17:36

the one best thing to do with any soundcard is to mod an EMI shield onto it.

I did it with my X-Fi (was an absolute pain) but ultimately worth it.

the best soundcard for those who don't want to deal with a lot of external gear is the X-Fi platinum. set it to ASIO mode (to avoid all the processing that can cause artifacts) and use the playback methods outlined in the article.

as for those asking if their MP3 will become 'lossless' quality by using external equipment, the answer is no. MP3 is MP3 and as such will always sound like crap.

pendragon · 12th Sep 2007, 18:25

i'm in the 'can't hear a difference' camp, so i'll be happy to stick with the MP3/onboard audio for now...

however, I would like to also recommend ExactAudioCopy ..great program.

hughwi · 12th Sep 2007, 19:08

well Josh, I would just like to say that having recently upgraded both my hi-fi equipment and my computer audio equipment in my latest step up the audiophile ladder, it is great to read such a well presented, thought out and ultimately unbiased (excepting the alliance to foobar, EAC and FLAC which make sense) article. I have been using foobar and ASIO to play my music for a while now (ever since i upgraded my speakers) however i did not know about EAC, and can i just say it eats my old CD ripper for breakfast! I can now clearly tell the difference between one of my albums ripped in FLAC and mp3, wheras before i went back to 192kb/s mp3 as i couldnt hear the difference over FLAC. I guess now i am going to have to go out and purchase a new 500gb monster hard drive to store all my FLAC on!!!!

12th Sep 2007, 11:56	#1
Tim S Pewlius Caesar bit-tech Staff Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ascot, Berks Posts: 18,021	PC Audio 101 http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2007/09/12/pc_audio_101/1 The MP3 is by far the most popular way to listen to music on your PC, but it's not the best way. We have a look at lossless audio and explain how to get the most out of your music. __________________ Tim on Twitter \| Tim's Blog \| Tim's Flickr The bit-tech Blog \| bit-tech on Twitter \| Join the bit-tech & Custom PC folding team (#35947)

12th Sep 2007, 13:10	#3
neonplanet40 Supermodder Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK Posts: 339	I cant find the ASIO drivers for the X-Fi Fatality. Anyone know where to get them? The search engine on creatives website is woeful. Neon __________________ Home Entertainment =Sony Bravia 40V3000, Onkyo 605, Playstation 3 and Acoustic Energy EVO NEO 5.1 Speakers My System=Asus P5K Premium, Pentium Core 2 Quad @ 3200Mhz (everyday use), 4GB OCZ Goldlines, 74GB Rapter and 320GB WD, XFX 8800GTS Overclocked, Enermex Liberty 620W, Auzentech Prelude 7.1, Akasa Eclipse-32,Samsung 22" Widescreen LCD

12th Sep 2007, 13:38	#4
Seraphim Works Multimodder Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wirral / Coventry, UK Posts: 164	Alas, if only I had the money for a low cost setup, denon amp and a couple of b&w bookshelf speakers.... Damn you Joshua Moore, now I'll end up trying to get a new audio setup as well as upgrading the pc! __________________ From a 4.0Ghz P4 to a 3.3Ghz Q6600, thank god for price wars...

12th Sep 2007, 14:23	#6
yakyb CK is God!!! Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,067	well im still using winamp2.93 and i have to say im not all that impressed by it (i only use it because its quick) ill check out foobar when i get home __________________ Gaming Box:: q6600 @3.0 :: 9800gtx :: Abit IP35 :: 4gb :: 1.4TB :: akasa eclipse :: Win7 Development:: PhenomII 955BE @3.2 :: 4200 :: asus M4A785 M Evo :: 1.25TB ::Win7 Media Centre :: q6600 @3.0 :: x1950pro :: asus p35 epu :: 8gb :: 320 GB :: Lc17B :: Win7 server:: I7 860 :: p55 gd65 :: 3450 :: 8 TB :: 8gb :: Rebel 12 :: server 2008 R2

12th Sep 2007, 16:30	#16
Jipa Licenced idiot. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 3,062	After saying this: "A few upgrades and tweaks down the line, all of my music is ripped in lossless, and in nearly all cases, the difference between 320k MP3 and FLAC is apparent" I feel I'm forced to ask you for some setup-details. I have some doubts about anyone hearing the difference, and atleast I like to hear on what kind of setup do the differences appear? __________________ Abit IP35 - E6750 - 8800GT 1024 MB - 2 GB 800 MHz - enough HDDs - 750 W Silverstone - CM Storm Sniper Asus P5Q-VM - Q9450 - 4 GB - 400 W Silverstone - Fortress FT01 AllTheMods - MetkuMods - LedCalc

12th Sep 2007, 13:47	#5
stoff3r Multimodder Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 86	so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...

12th Sep 2007, 14:25	#7
Bogie Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28	I remember having ASIO drivers up before on an old creative X-Fi driver. Now they are nowhere to be seen. Anyone have any ideas how to get ASIO working on X-Fi cards? I have X-Fi Elite Pro?

12th Sep 2007, 14:27	#8
Bogie Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28	PS. Anyone know any good foobar skins and where to get them please?

12th Sep 2007, 14:31	#9
Bogie Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28	Am gonna try these: http://www.asio4all.com/

12th Sep 2007, 14:36	#10
Bogie Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28	Didn't work.

12th Sep 2007, 16:07	#14
maha_x What's a Dremel? Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 14	WOW Had to register just to comment... Now I was familiar with foobar before but not asio and wow, I can tell the difference clearly now between foobar and winmediaplayer on my logitech Z3 speakers which are not exactly hifi... I read that the audigy has quality problems cos it allways has to go internally to 48khz, so going from 44.1 to 48 was bad cos of the small difference. So now I can directly upsample to 24/96 that has plenty of detail for upsampling. Standard windoze audio sounds clearly muffled now... Thanks alot for this info!!

12th Sep 2007, 16:07	#15
Rocket733 Austerity - It's the only way Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,165	Great guide for a beginner in computer hi-fi. Another low cost usb dac option is the silverstone EB01; while not as high end as the 0404 it does a great job for about $80 (us).

12th Sep 2007, 17:36	#18
Bluephoenix Spoon? What spoon? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 936	the one best thing to do with any soundcard is to mod an EMI shield onto it. I did it with my X-Fi (was an absolute pain) but ultimately worth it. the best soundcard for those who don't want to deal with a lot of external gear is the X-Fi platinum. set it to ASIO mode (to avoid all the processing that can cause artifacts) and use the playback methods outlined in the article. as for those asking if their MP3 will become 'lossless' quality by using external equipment, the answer is no. MP3 is MP3 and as such will always sound like crap.

12th Sep 2007, 18:25	#19
pendragon I pickle they Join Date: May 2004 Location: Massachusetts,usa Posts: 631	i'm in the 'can't hear a difference' camp, so i'll be happy to stick with the MP3/onboard audio for now... however, I would like to also recommend ExactAudioCopy ..great program. __________________ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-@ s-:>: a- C++$ UL---@ P++>+++++$ L+ E----@ W+++ N o? K? w++>+++++ O---@ M-- V? PS--() PE+@ Y? PGP-@ t+(+++) 5(+)@ X@ R+(++) tv@ b++ DI@ D++ G e++>+++++ h! r(%) y? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

12th Sep 2007, 19:08	#20
hughwi Hypermodder Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Southampton Uni / London Posts: 884	well Josh, I would just like to say that having recently upgraded both my hi-fi equipment and my computer audio equipment in my latest step up the audiophile ladder, it is great to read such a well presented, thought out and ultimately unbiased (excepting the alliance to foobar, EAC and FLAC which make sense) article. I have been using foobar and ASIO to play my music for a while now (ever since i upgraded my speakers) however i did not know about EAC, and can i just say it eats my old CD ripper for breakfast! I can now clearly tell the difference between one of my albums ripped in FLAC and mp3, wheras before i went back to 192kb/s mp3 as i couldnt hear the difference over FLAC. I guess now i am going to have to go out and purchase a new 500gb monster hard drive to store all my FLAC on!!!!