Sony sued over Blu-ray patent - bit-tech.net Forums

CardJoe · 1st Sep 2008, 08:58

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/09...u-ray-patent/1

Intellectual property firm Orinda IP USA is suing Sony over alleged patent infringement by the company's Blu-Ray products - and is looking for a big payout.

liratheal · 1st Sep 2008, 09:01

Mm, another legal dispute.

Anyone want to bet Orinda get buried in paper for the next milenia?

ChaosDefinesOrder · 1st Sep 2008, 09:08

according to Wikipedia, the Compact Disc has been on the market since 1982. Recordable CDs (ie an "Apparatus and method for recording/reproducing optical information and optical disk-shaped recording medium") have been available since 1990!

1993 is a few years after this, therefore surely the "prior art" argument works for this "patent" thus rendering it invalid?

Patent trolls should be ordered to make good on their IP within a year of purchasing the patent before they're permitted to bring anything to court. If they bring something to court without any intentions on licensing or using the technology themselves, they should be forced to pay the defendents the same amount they're suing for!

Go to hell Orinda

Arkanrais · 1st Sep 2008, 09:39

freaking patent trolls.
no sueing over DVD's, CD's UMD's Laser Disc's, HD-DVD's? of course not. they have to wait till there is a large enough company who pretty much owns the current market on the tech and has a good enough pocket of cash to take.
hey, why don't we devise a patent for devices sending electrical impulses through wires to other devices?

F*** Orinda sideways. I hope they lose and get counter sued into oblivion for wasting the courts time and being a company of douches.

Burnout21 · 1st Sep 2008, 09:50

I hope sony sue there arses for this, Sueing WAR!!!

Paradigm Shifter · 1st Sep 2008, 11:06

That is ridiculous - that patent is so vague I'm amazed it was ever granted in the first place. Aside from that, as others have said, 'optical disc shaped recording medium' covers everything from CDs to UMDs to Blu-ray. It's not just Orinda - patent trolls as they are - but whoever granted that patent clearly wasn't doing their job properly.

docodine · 1st Sep 2008, 11:09

I would love to see this guy begging on the streets.

Mentai · 1st Sep 2008, 11:36

Intellectual property company's should be illegal. They're professional trolls! I agree with the notion that if a patent is not acted on within a year it is made redundant. This system is in desperate need of fixing.

identikit · 1st Sep 2008, 12:16

Just wait until software patents take off...

pdf27 · 1st Sep 2008, 12:19

Read the claims in the patent guys. This patent only covers a method of error checking on the disk prior to writing to it with a laser. Hence pressed blu-ray disks aren't covered, nor are read-only drives. CD/DVD burners using this error correction algorithm may be infringing it though.

Yemerich · 1st Sep 2008, 12:23

As thousands of scientists struggle for years in developing something, stupid leech lawers study some hours in searching for breachs in the laws to make easy money on the hard workers.

So, for each technical questions they raise, lawyers raise ten legal issues.

This is holding science back!

Intellectual property company... this is outrageous!

DXR_13KE · 1st Sep 2008, 12:55

i hate patent trolls...

ChaosDefinesOrder · 1st Sep 2008, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdf27

Read the claims in the patent guys. This patent only covers a method of error checking on the disk prior to writing to it with a laser. Hence pressed blu-ray disks aren't covered, nor are read-only drives. CD/DVD burners using this error correction algorithm may be infringing it though.

According to the wikipedia article on Compact Discs, Recordable CDs have been available since 1990 (as I mentioned earlier), so the error checking before burning has been around that long as well, as I'd find it remarkable if such error checking wasn't included for 3 years after recordable CDs were marketed... especially given that error checking/data redundancy has been present right from conception of CDs...

What's confusing is that the title of the patent has nothing to do with error correction, so that's a rather ambiguous patent in the first place. That's like patenting a "cyclindrical aqueous based beverage container" (i.e. a mug) and then specifying that the patent only covers the mug handle!

Also, that flow chart could be applied to hard disk based media...

pdf27 · 1st Sep 2008, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosDefinesOrder

According to the wikipedia article on Compact Discs, Recordable CDs have been available since 1990 (as I mentioned earlier), so the error checking before burning has been around that long as well, as I'd find it remarkable if such error checking wasn't included for 3 years after recordable CDs were marketed... especially given that error checking/data redundancy has been present right from conception of CDs...

Indeed. And if that method of error checking was used elsewhere, that constitutes prior art and the patent is invalid. If (as the claims state) this is an improved method of carrying out error checking, the patent is valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosDefinesOrder

What's confusing is that the title of the patent has nothing to do with error correction, so that's a rather ambiguous patent in the first place. That's like patenting a "cyclindrical aqueous based beverage container" (i.e. a mug) and then specifying that the patent only covers the mug handle!

Seriously, that is pretty clear as some patents go. I've got one going through at the moment (w00t - it's finally been published if not yet granted) and even I have to read carefully to understand what they're going on about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosDefinesOrder

, that flow chart could be applied to hard disk based media...

Yep. And if Sony can demonstrate that someone else was using an identical or substantially similar method of error checking on a hard disk (such that doing so to a CD would be obvious to "someone well versed in the art") then there is no inventive step and the patent is invalid. Of course, that also leaves them open to being sued by whoever invented the HDD error checking method

hitman012 · 1st Sep 2008, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradigm Shifter

That is ridiculous - that patent is so vague I'm amazed it was ever granted in the first place. Aside from that, as others have said, 'optical disc shaped recording medium' covers everything from CDs to UMDs to Blu-ray.

Well, then it's a good thing they don't grant patents based on a glance at the title. If you actually read the patent and look at the 'Description of the Prior Art' section then it explains why it is different to a conventional CD.

Bluephoenix · 1st Sep 2008, 15:09

here's where history is fun.

Sony originally invented the recordable CD and music CD, so they can claim that patent infringes upon their previous research.

(the reason a recordable CD is the size it is is because the head of Sony BMG at the time loved symphonies and wanted all of beethoven's 5th on a single disc in uncompressed format.)

this isn't going to hold up.

also if they didn't want it thrown out on stupidity they'd have to sue every optical disc mfg. from 1993 until now, or it gets thrown out as selective application.

saxman · 1st Sep 2008, 17:14

This seems so stupid that a company can actually be profitable by buying patents solely for the purpose of suing another company for a very widely used technology. The whole purpose of a patent is to protect the original inventor from being exploited for his/her hard work. I would be plain pissed at Orinda just for being total pricks and trying to capitalize on some of my work without the slightest interest in using it.

As far as the patent reads it is a method not only for error checking but also how to allow the drive to understand where the data is if there is a bad sector and it needs to be placed somewhere else on the disk. Also the fairly standard affair of redundant information on an optical disk, I am still not sure how much of this is really important to sony's BRdisks or how similar the process is but I kinda doubt it is all that similar.

By the way google has a wonderful patent search function now.
This is the patent in question.
Happy Searching

sleepyhollow · 1st Sep 2008, 19:13

So Sony invented the cd me thinks not

In March 1979, one week after the press conference in which the CD player had been shown to the world, a large Philips delegation set off for Japan. The Japanese Ministry of Industry and Technology (MITI) had decided to convene a conference in which the industry would come together and decide upon a standard for the audio disc. In order to increase the opportunities for the Philips system, it seemed a good idea to collaborate with a Japanese partner. That is why a tight schedule of demonstrations was planned at all leading Japanese electronics companies.

The development of the CD took a decisive turn just before the return journey. The demonstrations in Japan had gone extremely well. As Joop van Tilburg, head of the audio division, was packing his suitcases, he received a telephone call from the president of Sony, Akio Morita. The offer of joint further development was accepted. In the months that followed, Philips and Sony engineers flew backwards and forwards in turn to see each other. Their aim was to agree upon a joint standard for the CD. Both companies would then be able to develop their own products in accordance with this standard.

Amon · 1st Sep 2008, 19:36

I want to s**t in this guy's mouth.

Spaceraver · 1st Sep 2008, 22:53

Haha.
1. They sue for something that has been around for decades in terms of electronic devices.
2. They only sue one company that would be big enough to pay big money.
3. There is "previous art" of the aforementioned technology, so the claim should be /dev/null.
4. This lawsuit is so utterly ridiculus that it should result in insta-fail.

1st Sep 2008, 08:58	#1
CardJoe Player Character bit-tech Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,940	Sony sued over Blu-ray patent http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/09...u-ray-patent/1 Intellectual property firm Orinda IP USA is suing Sony over alleged patent infringement by the company's Blu-Ray products - and is looking for a big payout. __________________ this is joe's non-bit-tech blog

1st Sep 2008, 09:01	#2
liratheal Just got a great book on tape Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: High Wycombe, UK Posts: 3,551	Mm, another legal dispute. Anyone want to bet Orinda get buried in paper for the next milenia? __________________ Gigabyte MA790FX, X4 9950 Black Edition, 8gb Geil Black Dragon, 2x4870 512mb, Antec TruePower Quattro 850w I game, Do you?

1st Sep 2008, 09:08	#3
ChaosDefinesOrder Vapourmodder Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 363	according to Wikipedia, the Compact Disc has been on the market since 1982. Recordable CDs (ie an "Apparatus and method for recording/reproducing optical information and optical disk-shaped recording medium") have been available since 1990! 1993 is a few years after this, therefore surely the "prior art" argument works for this "patent" thus rendering it invalid? Patent trolls should be ordered to make good on their IP within a year of purchasing the patent before they're permitted to bring anything to court. If they bring something to court without any intentions on licensing or using the technology themselves, they should be forced to pay the defendents the same amount they're suing for! Go to hell Orinda __________________ Current setup: Hiper Osiris \| Core i7 920 (Cooled by Noctua NH-U12P) \| Foxconn Renaissance \| 2x GTX280 \| Cooler Master UCP \| Corsair Dominator 3GB (soon to be 9GB) \| Creative X-Fi Titanium \| Vista Home Premium x64 \| OS Drive: WD Velociraptor 300GB. Storage: 1x 160GB, 1x 250GB, 1x 300GB, 1x500GB (incremental additions over the years! All Maxtor) \| Monitor: Dell 2709W

1st Sep 2008, 09:39	#4
Arkanrais Supermodder Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wangamadness, New Zealand Posts: 330	freaking patent trolls. no sueing over DVD's, CD's UMD's Laser Disc's, HD-DVD's? of course not. they have to wait till there is a large enough company who pretty much owns the current market on the tech and has a good enough pocket of cash to take. hey, why don't we devise a patent for devices sending electrical impulses through wires to other devices? F*** Orinda sideways. I hope they lose and get counter sued into oblivion for wasting the courts time and being a company of douches. __________________ Visit my DeviantArt page or I'll make you squeal like a piggy and throw a spatula at you. FEAR THE SPATULA! What the hell part of a chicken is the nugget?! goddamn McDonalds and their LIES!

1st Sep 2008, 09:50	#5
Burnout21 is true bit-techer! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Nott's Posts: 4,846	I hope sony sue there arses for this, Sueing WAR!!! __________________ DFI P45-T2RS Plus, Q6600, 4GB Reaper HPC, GTX280 & FX3450, X-Fi Xtreme Music, 1570GB Storage

1st Sep 2008, 11:06	#6
Paradigm Shifter Lethargic Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,210	That is ridiculous - that patent is so vague I'm amazed it was ever granted in the first place. Aside from that, as others have said, 'optical disc shaped recording medium' covers everything from CDs to UMDs to Blu-ray. It's not just Orinda - patent trolls as they are - but whoever granted that patent clearly wasn't doing their job properly. __________________ Core i7 920 D0 @ 3.8GHz \| 6GB Corsair 1600MHz \| Gigabyte EX58-UD5 \| XFX 4870X2 2GB \| 4TB \| WUXGA

1st Sep 2008, 11:09	#7
docodine Ultramodder Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,493	I would love to see this guy begging on the streets. __________________ Armagetron Advanced! ~~[ Cooler Master Elite 310 \| Intel E5200 \| Zotac 9600GT \| broken MSI G31 mobo \| Corsair 2x2GB DDR2-667 ]~~

1st Sep 2008, 11:36	#8
Mentai Supermodder Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 491	Intellectual property company's should be illegal. They're professional trolls! I agree with the notion that if a patent is not acted on within a year it is made redundant. This system is in desperate need of fixing.

1st Sep 2008, 12:16	#9
identikit Ultramodder Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: London Posts: 1,182	Just wait until software patents take off... __________________ www.crushed-core.com \| Folding @ Home \| CPC & Bit-tech folding stats (team #35947) \| My Heatware

1st Sep 2008, 12:19	#10
pdf27 Multimodder Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 142	Read the claims in the patent guys. This patent only covers a method of error checking on the disk prior to writing to it with a laser. Hence pressed blu-ray disks aren't covered, nor are read-only drives. CD/DVD burners using this error correction algorithm may be infringing it though. __________________ After courage and valor have long since fled, the day will be won by the guy who remembered to bring reinforcements to the party - Schlock Mercenary

1st Sep 2008, 12:23	#11
Yemerich What's a rebimboca da parafuseta? Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil Posts: 712	As thousands of scientists struggle for years in developing something, stupid leech lawers study some hours in searching for breachs in the laws to make easy money on the hard workers. So, for each technical questions they raise, lawyers raise ten legal issues. This is holding science back! Intellectual property company... this is outrageous! __________________ Bit Tech is more than games and hardware - check out the mods too. Don't let modding die in Bit-Tech.net.

1st Sep 2008, 12:55	#12
DXR_13KE Madeira's banana is the best!!! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madeira ; Portugal Posts: 6,461	i hate patent trolls... __________________ *Renegade X - 0.40 Release!* <---- CLICK!

1st Sep 2008, 15:09	#16
Bluephoenix Spoon? What spoon? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 936	here's where history is fun. Sony originally invented the recordable CD and music CD, so they can claim that patent infringes upon their previous research. (the reason a recordable CD is the size it is is because the head of Sony BMG at the time loved symphonies and wanted all of beethoven's 5th on a single disc in uncompressed format.) this isn't going to hold up. also if they didn't want it thrown out on stupidity they'd have to sue every optical disc mfg. from 1993 until now, or it gets thrown out as selective application.

1st Sep 2008, 17:14	#17
saxman Multimodder Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hick Town, USA Posts: 153	This seems so stupid that a company can actually be profitable by buying patents solely for the purpose of suing another company for a very widely used technology. The whole purpose of a patent is to protect the original inventor from being exploited for his/her hard work. I would be plain pissed at Orinda just for being total pricks and trying to capitalize on some of my work without the slightest interest in using it. As far as the patent reads it is a method not only for error checking but also how to allow the drive to understand where the data is if there is a bad sector and it needs to be placed somewhere else on the disk. Also the fairly standard affair of redundant information on an optical disk, I am still not sure how much of this is really important to sony's BRdisks or how similar the process is but I kinda doubt it is all that similar. By the way google has a wonderful patent search function now. This is the patent in question. Happy Searching

1st Sep 2008, 19:13	#18
sleepyhollow What's a Dremel? Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4	So Sony invented the cd me thinks not In March 1979, one week after the press conference in which the CD player had been shown to the world, a large Philips delegation set off for Japan. The Japanese Ministry of Industry and Technology (MITI) had decided to convene a conference in which the industry would come together and decide upon a standard for the audio disc. In order to increase the opportunities for the Philips system, it seemed a good idea to collaborate with a Japanese partner. That is why a tight schedule of demonstrations was planned at all leading Japanese electronics companies. The development of the CD took a decisive turn just before the return journey. The demonstrations in Japan had gone extremely well. As Joop van Tilburg, head of the audio division, was packing his suitcases, he received a telephone call from the president of Sony, Akio Morita. The offer of joint further development was accepted. In the months that followed, Philips and Sony engineers flew backwards and forwards in turn to see each other. Their aim was to agree upon a joint standard for the CD. Both companies would then be able to develop their own products in accordance with this standard.

1st Sep 2008, 19:36	#19
Amon inch-perfect Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: cannoning into the reds, Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,456	I want to st in this guy's mouth. __________________ Defunct** Socket 939 San Diego 4000+::2GB PC3200::Radeon 9600 SE 128MB::200GB HDD::24" Dell 2407WFP-HC::WinXP x64/x86 dual boot Dell Vostro 1500 laptop::Socket P Merom T7100::2GB PC5400::Go 8600m GT 256MB::660GB HDD::15.4" WXGA+, 24" Dell 2407WFP-HC::WinXP::Fanatec 911 Wheel+Pedals

1st Sep 2008, 22:53	#20
Spaceraver Weekend Junkie Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kolding, Denmark Posts: 1,305	Haha. 1. They sue for something that has been around for decades in terms of electronic devices. 2. They only sue one company that would be big enough to pay big money. 3. There is "previous art" of the aforementioned technology, so the claim should be /dev/null. 4. This lawsuit is so utterly ridiculus that it should result in insta-fail. __________________ "Faith: not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche. "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca Last thing I remember, I was drinking this glowing green sht out of a test tube and dancing like a bstard.