News Epic: Second hand games are a huge issue

[CardJoe]

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/11...a-huge-issue/1

Epic President Dr. Michael Capps says that the games industry needs to find some way to combat the second hand market, quickly.

[steveo_mcg]

"We don't make any money when someone rents it, and we don't make any money when someone buys it used - way more than twice as many people played Gears than bought it."

awww cry some moar...

My new policy on games with DRM is to buy second hand and never actually install from the disk that way i get to stick to my principles of not giving drm loving scum bags any money and still getting to play any decent games with out being a scum sucking pirate (much). Which also goes for crap games such as those that epic have been shoveling of late.

[PQuiff]

Oh i wisht they would F OFF and shut up. ITS PIRACY!!!! ITS SECOND HAND GAMES!!!

WTF not happy with screwing out PCs with DRM. It also stops us selling our games so we can get more money to buy more games. I used to think when you bough something you owned it. Not any more.

Hell when i buy my car ill be expecting it to start only 100 times and be un-trade inable!

Piracy may be hurting the games industry. BUT they are ruining it, and it doesnt help when we get "We are not releasing this game on PC". Then they do 2 years later in a **** port. THATS WHY NO ONE BUYS IT!!!

[Sinner15]

Piracy excists on every platform! get over it. After all the years of loyalty from PC gamers they move away.

Lets face it Gears of war 2 is 40 quid in the shops right now second hand in a week it will be 35. rented a fiver. if your like me and at the moment have too many games to play Far cry 2, fallout 3, COD5 and L4D in a week. then it's easier to wait for some games to come down in price any way. Bring down the prices and piracy has a good chance of dissapearing, if not reducing.

[shigllgetcha]

"Capps also reckons that DLC is going to play a more important role in the future"
yeh when people are buying preowned games, charging us more in the future after we buy a game is definately a way to stop us buying preowned. Sound counter intuative?

I cant see that the preowned market is a huge problem really. When im buying a game, if im really interested in a game i dont mind paying full price, for something im less bothered about i wont. in that way if there wasnt a preowned market i wouldnt be bothered buying some average games at all. so they arent lossing anything in my opinion because otherwise i wont buy it. the preowned market may even be stimulating the new market, im sure some people like the idea of buying a game and getting some of your money back after a month or so, so maybe they can go out and buy another(i myself begrudge selling a game to a shop so they can put it back on the shelf for twice the price they but it of me- thats just the way i see it)

also, profit made from preowned goes to the game shops which is probably goin towards the price we pay making them cheaper as they have income coming into them in from other sources which is probably stimulating the new market aswell.

Why are we the consumer the problem and publishers feel they have to trick us into buying games new or paying more instead of the industry looking at themselves to fix the problem

the consumer is always goin to do whats in their best interest, just the way it is

[Sifter3000]

Not sure why anyone still takes this kind of moaning seriously. It's not like you hear the head of Penguin books banging about how libraries are ruining his business, do you? Worse, while Epic is content to moan, I don't see them doing anything constructive in terms of figuring out a solution to this so called problem. It's not like they bothered to invest in building something like Steam....

[Fod]

Originally Posted by steveo_mcg

awww cry some moar...

My new policy on games with DRM is to buy second hand and never actually install from the disk that way i get to stick to my principles of not giving drm loving scum bags any money and still getting to play any decent games with out being a scum sucking pirate (much). Which also goes for crap games such as those that epic have been shoveling of late.

but then you are spending money and none of it is going to the people who made the game. you're basically pirating the game but paying for it :S

broken logic much?

[OnyxLilninja]

Epic games just lost a customer. Cry me a river, if someone buys something, they own it and are entitled to sell it on.

[bbshammo]

IMO, fair play to Dr. Michael Capps who is essentially doing his job in trying his level best to increase the value of his operation by any means possible to him, as long as his consumers keep fighting back as we clearly do, we should end up with a thriving industry.

This whole Piracy issue isn't the causal factor of this industry's problems as "business leaders" like this guy keep whining about, it's the RESULT MADE POSSIBLE BY THE EMERGENCE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY, as a reaction to poor service and inflated prices for years, as well as a few opportunistic chancers who like something for nothing... On that point, by the way, can all you self-righteous hypocrites flaming the act of piracy as though it was rape or murder just calm down and try to get things in perspective please?

It's either pathetic that people like him bark like this, or it's deplorable that they try and BS like they do.

Sure the ACT of piracy is very damaging, but the solution is proved and has been for a LONG time; STEAM anyone?

Not just steam, but Valve as a whole. They are a gleaming benchmark of how to make and distribute games, and more importantly LISTEN to their customers and play fair.

I just find it so hard to take this sort of argument from such a large player in the industry when they keep ignoring the alternative options because of their own strategies and agendas. IF THEY DID BUSINESS PROPERLY AND PUT THEIR CUSTOMERS FIRST, THEN MAYBE THEY'D SUCCEED IN THEIR CHOSEN LINE OF WORK!

To hear this guy trying to redefine a fundamental practice in trade as has been since... forever... by which I mean, fairly trading your rightfully owned goods at a lower value to others in the market for such goods, is just a great example of how out of touch some of these guys are becoming.

If I buy a game, I buy the right to use that game, the same applies for absolutely every other item or service I can buy, to now suggest that once I buy, I cannot sell that "right" on at a depreciated value is outrageous!!!

Is it even legal??

This industry is probably going through its greatest ever trial at the moment, and it will emerge, eventually, in a form that suites modern times. This challenge has largely been brought about by emerging technologies that have, in turn, made it harder to securely distribute, and also spawned the emergence of more tailored alternatives (consoles). These challenges are now seperating the men from the boys... Epic... and the "boys" just keep whining and crying and making the most ridiculous excuses and proposals.

Sounds like perfectly normal business practice if you ask me.

[shigllgetcha]

id sooner pay alittle less to download a game onto HDD and never pass it on. Insentive has to be given to make people buy new, not punishment

[Flibblebot]

I think he needs to work out how the rental market works. The movie rental market has always worked for the movie studios because they charge more for a rental disc than they do for a retail disc. This pricing has been in place since the early days of beta/VHS rentals and it's an accepted practice, and takes into account the fact that the renter will recoup the inflated cost of the movie over the lifetime of the disc.

The games companies should have done something similar, but they didn't and now they're regretting that decision.

As for the second hand market, no other industry expects to make money from second hand products. Then, on the other hand, no other industry has after-sales infrastructures, such as online gaming or patching, like the games industry does.

Still, that infrastructure is still there if somebody doesn't sell their game and keeps playing online for months after buying it. That's no different, really, in the case of the someone who buys a secondhand game and plays online. The games company gets no extra money in the case of someone who keeps a game, so why should they get any money from a secondhand sale (assuming online play is free)?

Wanting to get money from secondhand sales is just greed, pure and simple. No other industry expects it, so why should the games industry expect any different?

And yes, piracy exists on every platform, but it is more rampant on the PC because it is so much easier (piracy on consoles requires some level of technical know-how).

Still, to not develop on the PC because of piracy is just a lazy excuse. Fact of the matter is that games companies probably make more from console sales than they do from PC sales. If that's the case, tell us that's why you don't want to develop on the PC. We understand market forces. We don't like bullsh!t excuses.

[Spiny]

I'm guessing that removing second hand games would push more people towards piracy.

Epic used to be such a great company, but they seem to be bleating like a wounded goat every other week these days.

[PQuiff]

One theme thats emerging here is that EPIC and other developers/distributers are IDIOTS.

If they want us to keep our games. look at BURNOUT devs criterion. Not only are they giving us Excelent updates(often), A new FLYING CAR soon. BUT are not charging for it!

They will have a new LARGE update which will be paid for. But they seem to understand their audience and more intent on good support and fair value for money.

THAT is how it should be done. Not moaning like a bunch of twats.

[steveo_mcg]

Originally Posted by Fod

but then you are spending money and none of it is going to the people who made the game. you're basically pirating the game but paying for it :S

broken logic much?

Not really, i'm paying for a valid licence just not from the publisher. Piracy is using the product with out a licence imo. Fact is I don't want my money to go to EA, even indirectly by supporting the second hand market, but this is the best medium if i still want to play the game.

[sandys]

PC piracy is a problem so they are only doing 360 LOL, I don't think I know many people without a modded Xbox360 are they going to stop publishing there too?

Ooooh perhaps this is a good thing for us PS3 owners perhaps devs will realize its the only non cracked console on the market even after 2 years and start to show it some proper respect.

I can see how the used market is an issue, people go into Game and pay near retail for used and the only people who benefit is Game, not the devs who put in the effort to bring a quality title to you, its not right really is it, if I was a game dev I'd be looking at ways to implement DRM to stop this too, online/telephone activations etc, will no doubt be in a lot of future titles.

[shigllgetcha]

WHY do people ADD caps in UNNECESSARY places to add EMPHASIS to words THAT dont really need IT

[crash32953295@msn.]

answer: steam
other information: L4D is awsome

That is all

[steveo_mcg]

Originally Posted by sandys

I can see how the used market is an issue, people go into Game and pay near retail for used and the only people who benefit is Game, not the devs who put in the effort to bring a quality title to you, its not right really is it, if I was a game dev I'd be looking at ways to implement DRM to stop this too, online/telephone activations etc, will no doubt be in a lot of future titles.

And game will tell you that they make so little on the sale of the original that they would either bump up prices and become even less competitive with the e-tailers or go out of business. I can't feel sorry for either camp but at least Game has made an attempt to fix its business model and not just whine at the end user.

[Phil Rhodes]

20:1

How do they tell?

[Whalemeister]

Hold on, they're bitching about 20:1 piracy rates for Crysis and then in the same breath say "way more than twice as many people played Gears than bought it"...

Way more than 2:1 for GoW and 20:1 for Crysis... I may not be a master of "da maff" but those numbers don't add up, one in twenty pirated for Crysis and one in two (second hand) for GoW.

Spot the bigger issue and quit whining about PC piracy!!!