The Dark Side of Overdrive - bit-tech.net Forums

Tim S · 6th Feb 2009, 08:11

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/mon...of-overdrive/1

LCD monitor manufacturers have constantly pushed response times down with overdrive technology, which increases the voltage to force the liquid crystals to change colour states faster. Sadly, there are some side effects associated with this - we explain the cause and detail how to spot the problems yourself.

p3n · 6th Feb 2009, 08:49

*hums intro for fear of the dark*

I remember drama at 'CPL' when they started using TFT screens, wonder if they had such noticeable lag back then.
Interesting stuff.

severedhead · 6th Feb 2009, 09:09

Interesting read. This is something I was unaware of and despite having a 2405WFP, do not notice. I guess I'm lucky in that respect - or maybe just rubbish at gaming?

This now seems like buying a new monitor is a shot in the dark. I'd like to think its really only the cheaper models out there I need to be wary of, or is it?

capnPedro · 6th Feb 2009, 09:18

Well I don't notice any odd/bad effects on my SyncMaster 226BW so I'm happy!

Good to see another "explain a technical idea simply and interestingly" article. And embedded videos too? Oh ambassador, you spoil us.

500mph · 6th Feb 2009, 09:20

Cheers for the in-depth review. Not something that really concerns me though, but I know some people will read this like they breathe air.(Not sure what I meant by that)
I wonder how my two 1907fp's would look in landscape next to a 3007wfp or a 2407fp.
Anyone want to send me one so I can find out?

flibblesan · 6th Feb 2009, 09:22

No problems with my Advent X19W. Well worth the £90 I paid for it.

Kúsař · 6th Feb 2009, 09:30

Very well done, this article is!
I've got PVA LCD and I'm well aware of it's drawbacks. Input lag is short enough and ghosting is noticable only if you know where to look but it's not as fast as I would like(I have read rumours that Eizo's overdrive works slightly different way). But image quality is breath-taking. Especially in games like Crysis or Oblivion.
I wonder when we'll see impressive & fast display without technologies like overdrive.

Jenny_Y8S · 6th Feb 2009, 10:02

Well I've just ordered a Dell 2408WFP, it has terrible output lag

It won't be delivered until Monday.

(Did you see what I did there?)

hexx · 6th Feb 2009, 10:12

no problem on 27" Dell

hexx · 6th Feb 2009, 10:13

happy that i bought it, wanted to go for 24 incher but 27 Dell is different category - colors, black levels, uniformity and of course size

wafflesomd · 6th Feb 2009, 10:26

I've got a Viewsonic VA1930wm. I loved it at first, for about a year. Then I noticed the intolerable ghosting after I set it next to a CRT.

Since then I've gone back to my flat trinitron that will do 1600x1200 @85hrtz. I've been searching for a 4:3 LCD that can keep up with my CRT. It seems as though every LCD I've looked at so far, has some form of ghosting. On a CRT, my eyes can perfectly track moving objects on screen. With LCD's, if they blur even the slightest, I lost track and often, will get a headache.

Flexible_Lorry · 6th Feb 2009, 10:41

I have a 3007WFP-HC and as reported in the article, have never noticed input lag. It does suffer from a not-too-fast response rate and some moderate backlight bleeding. However it is still a beautiful panel which is quite good for most gaming and even for amateur colour image manipulation.

wuyanxu · 6th Feb 2009, 10:42

ah, inverse ghosting is horrible!

i used to get a little bit of that in my LG L226WTQ.

so for a TN panel, if it's spec says 5ms, that means there's no overdrive??

crompers · 6th Feb 2009, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuyanxu

so for a TN panel, if it's spec says 5ms, that means there's no overdrive??

i think due to the manufacturing process they have faster pixels, no need for overdrive

nice article and very well written. it would be nice to see an in depth look at the actual processes involved in making monitors too though

Javerh · 6th Feb 2009, 11:48

Interesting read. I'm planning on getting a new screen soon, but the Nec MultiSync 24WMGX3 is too expensive. Any other good candidates that are cheaper?

Benihana · 6th Feb 2009, 12:14

What about S-PVA panels such as the BenQ FP241W? How are they different from PVA screens?

wharrad · 6th Feb 2009, 12:21

Ahhh, this is the audiophile agruement for PCs! Finally, WE have something to get annoyed about

But more seriously yes and no. I'm guessing because the good folks at bit-tech review and look indepth at so much stuff through their monitors, which they also reviewed, they're going to be more sensitive than the average person.

The key here is NEVER (and I mean this) look for it in your own panels. You can live for ages and not notice a thing, but once you see it, well, that's the quick way to your credit card limit.

Thanks for the article! It's makes the most complicated purchase slightly easier (or more difficult

)

Pookeyhead · 6th Feb 2009, 12:40

As an owner of a 2405FPW... I can say I don't actually notice any lag at all. I'm sure it's there if people say so, but I'll be damned if I can notice any lag between me moving the mouse, and it actually moving. Any lag there is is way smaller than any human response time anyway, so let's be honest, does it really matter?

I've already decided my next screen will be IPS... but not because of any issue with input lag, which if we're honest, only really effects gamers.... or so they say! No one's reaction times are so fast as to be nerfed by the lag on my monitor, and if they say they are, they're just BSing to make themselves sound "leet"

I can't comment on the Samsung as I've never seen it, and can't do the split monitor tests here, but I've tried my damnedest to notice anything in everyday and gaming use... and failed.

Aren't we in danger of pushing the industry into spending money on this problem, which IMO would be better spent investing it into producing panels with the fidelity of IPS at the price of PVA? For me, the benefits of that would outweigh 10ms of lag.

LoopyJuice · 6th Feb 2009, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny_Y8S

Well I've just ordered a Dell 2408WFP, it has terrible output lag

It won't be delivered until Monday.

(Did you see what I did there?)

I bought one of these a good few months ago thinking that given its the 3rd or 4th encarnation of Dell's 24" line it would be nigh on perfect...

It lasted 5 minutes out of the box until it was put back in, sealed up and sent straight back to where it came from.

It seems i've just been incredibly lucky with TFT's and in the past had the three screens with the lowest in/output lag in existance (finally landing on my 30" Dell which I *was* going to replace with the 2408).

I noticed the lag just on the cursor on the desktop and games were unplayable for me on it.

I even looked for a new 30" that didn't fall foul to the issue but the newest 30" models all seem to have more inputs and more image processing gubbins to introduce delays, as far as i'm concerned, TFT's havn't moved forward since the 3007WFP that is god knows how many years old now!

LoopyJuice · 6th Feb 2009, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyJuice

I bought one of these a good few months ago thinking that given its the 3rd or 4th encarnation of Dell's 24" line it would be nigh on perfect...

It lasted 5 minutes out of the box until it was put back in, sealed up and sent straight back to where it came from.

It seems i've just been incredibly lucky with TFT's and in the past had the three screens with the lowest in/output lag in existance (finally landing on my 30" Dell which I *was* going to replace with the 2408).

I noticed the lag just on the cursor on the desktop and games were unplayable for me on it - it gave me a totally detached feeling from anything I was doing with the mouse and was horrible.

I even looked for a new 30" that didn't fall foul to the issue but the newest 30" models all seem to have more inputs and more image processing gubbins to introduce delays, as far as i'm concerned, TFT's havn't moved forward since the 3007WFP that is god knows how many years old now!

6th Feb 2009, 08:11	#1
Tim S Pewlius Caesar bit-tech Staff Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ascot, Berks Posts: 18,021	The Dark Side of Overdrive http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/mon...of-overdrive/1 LCD monitor manufacturers have constantly pushed response times down with overdrive technology, which increases the voltage to force the liquid crystals to change colour states faster. Sadly, there are some side effects associated with this - we explain the cause and detail how to spot the problems yourself. __________________ Tim on Twitter \| Tim's Blog \| Tim's Flickr The bit-tech Blog \| bit-tech on Twitter \| Join the bit-tech & Custom PC folding team (#35947)

6th Feb 2009, 09:18	#4
capnPedro Deaf forever to the battle's din Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North-East England Posts: 2,982	Well I don't notice any odd/bad effects on my SyncMaster 226BW so I'm happy! Good to see another "explain a technical idea simply and interestingly" article. And embedded videos too? Oh ambassador, you spoil us. __________________ ASUS M4A785TD-M Evo \| AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE \| D-Tek FuZion 4GB Corsair XMMS3-10666 \| Corsair TX650 Point Of View 8800GTX \| EK FC-8800

6th Feb 2009, 09:20	#5
500mph The Right man in the Wrong place Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,868	Cheers for the in-depth review. Not something that really concerns me though, but I know some people will read this like they breathe air.(Not sure what I meant by that) I wonder how my two 1907fp's would look in landscape next to a 3007wfp or a 2407fp. Anyone want to send me one so I can find out? __________________ Rocketfeesh Emergen-C! [Web][Twitter][Steam]

6th Feb 2009, 09:22	#6
flibblesan Destroyer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Nottingham Posts: 391	No problems with my Advent X19W. Well worth the £90 I paid for it. __________________ DaMeet - My LAN gaming website - My Blog - My Steam profile AMD Phenom II X4 955 BE, ASUS M4A785TD-M EVO, XFX 8800GT, 2Gb Corsair XMS3 1600, Win7

6th Feb 2009, 10:02	#8
Jenny_Y8S She geek Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK Posts: 249	Well I've just ordered a Dell 2408WFP, it has terrible output lag It won't be delivered until Monday. (Did you see what I did there?) __________________ Asus P6T Deluxe, i7 920, BFG 285OC, 6gb, 7x1tb, Vista X64, Dell 2408, Dell 2001 Dell M90, T7600,3gb, Win7x64, Dell 2001 MacBook Pro 13" SnowLeopard

6th Feb 2009, 08:49	#2
p3n Hypermodder Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 736	hums intro for fear of the dark I remember drama at 'CPL' when they started using TFT screens, wonder if they had such noticeable lag back then. Interesting stuff.

6th Feb 2009, 09:09	#3
severedhead Ultramodder Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Nottingham Posts: 1,479	Interesting read. This is something I was unaware of and despite having a 2405WFP, do not notice. I guess I'm lucky in that respect - or maybe just rubbish at gaming? This now seems like buying a new monitor is a shot in the dark. I'd like to think its really only the cheaper models out there I need to be wary of, or is it?

6th Feb 2009, 09:30	#7
Kúsař regular bit-tech reader Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Brnicko, CZ Posts: 221	Very well done, this article is! I've got PVA LCD and I'm well aware of it's drawbacks. Input lag is short enough and ghosting is noticable only if you know where to look but it's not as fast as I would like(I have read rumours that Eizo's overdrive works slightly different way). But image quality is breath-taking. Especially in games like Crysis or Oblivion. I wonder when we'll see impressive & fast display without technologies like overdrive.

6th Feb 2009, 10:12	#9
hexx Minimodder Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 40	no problem on 27" Dell

6th Feb 2009, 10:13	#10
hexx Minimodder Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 40	happy that i bought it, wanted to go for 24 incher but 27 Dell is different category - colors, black levels, uniformity and of course size

6th Feb 2009, 10:26	#11
wafflesomd Hypermodder Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 991	I've got a Viewsonic VA1930wm. I loved it at first, for about a year. Then I noticed the intolerable ghosting after I set it next to a CRT. Since then I've gone back to my flat trinitron that will do 1600x1200 @85hrtz. I've been searching for a 4:3 LCD that can keep up with my CRT. It seems as though every LCD I've looked at so far, has some form of ghosting. On a CRT, my eyes can perfectly track moving objects on screen. With LCD's, if they blur even the slightest, I lost track and often, will get a headache. __________________ http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1466/goldie.gif

6th Feb 2009, 10:41	#12
Flexible_Lorry What's a Dremel? Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 14	I have a 3007WFP-HC and as reported in the article, have never noticed input lag. It does suffer from a not-too-fast response rate and some moderate backlight bleeding. However it is still a beautiful panel which is quite good for most gaming and even for amateur colour image manipulation.

6th Feb 2009, 10:42	#13
wuyanxu quad fuelled, GTX200 powered Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: in a room near Soton Uni. UK Posts: 3,940	ah, inverse ghosting is horrible! i used to get a little bit of that in my LG L226WTQ. so for a TN panel, if it's spec says 5ms, that means there's no overdrive?? __________________ Death to consolification !!!Core i7 860 @ 4Ghz Cooled by Corsair H50 // Asus P7P55D Deluxe // 8GB of Corsair Dominators @ 1528Mhz 8-8-8-24 // BFG gtx260+ OC2 MaxCore 216SP 896MB // Samsung 64GB SSD // WD Raptor 74GB + Black 1TB + Green 1TB // Corsair Hx620w // Antec p182 // Samsung 24" T240

6th Feb 2009, 11:48	#15
Javerh Superfreak Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 655	Interesting read. I'm planning on getting a new screen soon, but the Nec MultiSync 24WMGX3 is too expensive. Any other good candidates that are cheaper? __________________ Project: Seawolf "Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them."

6th Feb 2009, 12:14	#16
Benihana What's a Dremel? Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3	What about S-PVA panels such as the BenQ FP241W? How are they different from PVA screens?

6th Feb 2009, 12:21	#17
wharrad Hypermodder Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burford, Oxfordshire Posts: 866	Ahhh, this is the audiophile agruement for PCs! Finally, WE have something to get annoyed about But more seriously yes and no. I'm guessing because the good folks at bit-tech review and look indepth at so much stuff through their monitors, which they also reviewed, they're going to be more sensitive than the average person. The key here is NEVER (and I mean this) look for it in your own panels. You can live for ages and not notice a thing, but once you see it, well, that's the quick way to your credit card limit. Thanks for the article! It's makes the most complicated purchase slightly easier (or more difficult ) __________________ Jimmy Carr - "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission"

6th Feb 2009, 12:40	#18
Pookeyhead It's Big, and It's Clever Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Blackpool Posts: 4,935	As an owner of a 2405FPW... I can say I don't actually notice any lag at all. I'm sure it's there if people say so, but I'll be damned if I can notice any lag between me moving the mouse, and it actually moving. Any lag there is is way smaller than any human response time anyway, so let's be honest, does it really matter? I've already decided my next screen will be IPS... but not because of any issue with input lag, which if we're honest, only really effects gamers.... or so they say! No one's reaction times are so fast as to be nerfed by the lag on my monitor, and if they say they are, they're just BSing to make themselves sound "leet" I can't comment on the Samsung as I've never seen it, and can't do the split monitor tests here, but I've tried my damnedest to notice anything in everyday and gaming use... and failed. Aren't we in danger of pushing the industry into spending money on this problem, which IMO would be better spent investing it into producing panels with the fidelity of IPS at the price of PVA? For me, the benefits of that would outweigh 10ms of lag. __________________ Intel i7 920 @ 3.8GHz ¦¦ Asus P6T Deluxe ¦¦ 6Gb Corsair Dominator C8 ¦¦ XFX GTX295 ¦¦ 2x 1Tb Samsung F1 ¦¦ 1x Seagate 7200.11 1.5Tb ¦¦ Gigabyte Odin 800W PSU ¦¦ Dell 2405FPW.