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Old 15th Jun 2009, 12:55   #1
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When is a browser bigger than the platform it runs on?

http://www.bit-tech.net/blog/2009/06...rating-system/

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Old 15th Jun 2009, 13:03   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by article
The user must be able to uninstall it
That option could potentially leave a high percentage of MS users without a method to connect to the net
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 13:09   #3
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It could, but there could be some kind of check to see if other browsers are installed. If there aren't other browsers installed (or isn't a different browser set as the default), it would be quite easy for Microsoft to display a notification along the lines of "you're about to remove the only web browser installed on this machine, are you sure you want to proceed?"

That would, in theory, be a solution to the problem and there could always be a recovery option in Control Panel which allows you to reinstall IE if you've done the dumb thing.
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 13:12   #4
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Yeah i can see some one poking around the windows components control panel not thinking it through and clicking remove IE to save 80mb of hard disk space then finding they could no longer get their gmail....

Tim, good post much more balance than your last mini rant . I agree MS shouldn't be forced to include another browser but the included one must be stand alone and not completely integrated into the OS.
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 13:19   #5
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Quote:
The browser must adhere to web standards
This seems unfair - Firefox doesn't pass Acid3 either - should Canonical be prevented from bundling it with Ubuntu?
Quote:
The user must be able to uninstall it
The user must be able to install an alternative
It must not be embedded into the OS in such a way that removing it 'breaks' the OS if an alternative browser is installed
The user must not be punished (with poor performance, instabilities, etc) if they choose an alternative browser
Aren't all these things true already?
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 13:26   #6
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In my view, MS should not be barred from including IE, but as you say it should not be so tightly hooked into the OS that it can't be effectively removed without breaking things. There is no reason why MS shouldn't use its own browser engine for things like Windows Update, Help etc., and this could be extended to a pre-installed micro-browser whose sole function is to connect to an MS portal and allow the user to download a browser of their choice (Firefox, IE, Chrome, Safari, Opera etc.) MS shouldn't have to host these, they should be hosted by the publisher. This means (a) users have to make a positive choice to use IE (which in my view addresses the EU's principal concern), (b) MS isn't forced to bundle software from other publishers, and (c) users always get an up to date browser from the start, with all the latest security patches etc.
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 13:30   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Tim, good post much more balance than your last mini rant . I agree MS shouldn't be forced to include another browser but the included one must be stand alone and not completely integrated into the OS.
Yes, the last post was a bit of a rant... partly because I think the whole thing is completely ridiculous - the issues should been tackled a long time ago, but they weren't for one reason or another. Now is not the time, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch424
Quote:
The browser must adhere to web standards
This seems unfair - Firefox doesn't pass Acid3 either - should Canonical be prevented from bundling it with Ubuntu?
No, but it should make a decent effort to adhere to web standards. 21/100 in Acid3 isn't exactly a great showing in that respect. Firefox's showing is much stronger.

Quote:
Quote:
The user must be able to uninstall it
The user must be able to install an alternative
It must not be embedded into the OS in such a way that removing it 'breaks' the OS if an alternative browser is installed
The user must not be punished (with poor performance, instabilities, etc) if they choose an alternative browser
Aren't all these things true already?
Most of them are already true, yes, but you can't completely uninstall Internet Explorer without third party tools. You can disable it, which some would argue is a happy medium, but I believe the option to remove it altogether should be there.
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 15:13   #8
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Quote:
The browser must adhere to web standards
what is the point in webstandards when all companies just ignore them i realise IE8 is a step in the right direction fo MS but realistically all browsers should at least get the rendering correct
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 01:03   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim S
You can disable it, which some would argue is a happy medium, but I believe the option to remove it altogether should be there.
Not to mention a number of applications - Windows Media Player for example - 'cheat' by embedding Internet Explorer windows into their interface for some functionality, on Vista and XP for certain, at least so you definitely have the issue of reduced usability were it removed entirely.
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 22:44   #10
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Microsoft should leave browser-developement to somebody more capable.
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 23:47   #11
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This is so stupid, Microsoft can do anything it wants to it's own products
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 03:03   #12
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You know what you're getting when you buy Windows, an OS along with all the tools you need for basic computing, a word processor, a basic image editor, a file manager and of course a web browser and media player. This is just the same as any Linux distro or Mac OS. I want to buy Windows with all these things I expect included in the box, with an option to untick what I don't require when installing. To force Microsoft to remove these completely is just plain silly and whoever likes the option to install MSIE and WMP being taken away completely probably doesn't use Windows anyway. Why is no-one kicking off because they've bundled Write and Paintbrush for years, oh yes and Calc - surely they're doing Casio out of the interactive computer calculator market!
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 06:55   #13
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It's a damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't situation. Either keep IE bundled with Windows which, due to market penetration, inhibits other browsers from making any headway, or leave out IE which means you've got to get to the web via other methods.

I agree, I'm not a huge fan of IE myself but the crux of it is this: a modern OS needs an internet browser. How much of your 'computer experience' is based on being able to browse and interact with websites.

To make this work, you have to do one of the following: (1) allow Microsoft to bundle IE with Windows, (2) allow users to pick from a list of browsers when they install/initially start Windows, or (3) force Microsoft to conform to standards. (1) is bad, (2) makes me smile at the thought of the inherent chaos in the would-be selection system, and (3) was almost realized until Microsoft went back to it's policy of having to opt-in for standards compliancy mode.

It's a bad situation for consumers no matter what happens.
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 14:05   #14
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of the web browser makers doesnt microsoft have the biggest pockets and can thereby out bid everyone else? The list of browsers at OS install seems to be the best method to me. Its not perfect but it works. Theres only like 4 or 5 browsers out there anyways. (IE, Firefox, Opera, Chrome)
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Old 23rd Jun 2009, 21:26   #15
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Quote:
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of the web browser makers doesnt microsoft have the biggest pockets and can thereby out bid everyone else? The list of browsers at OS install seems to be the best method to me. Its not perfect but it works. Theres only like 4 or 5 browsers out there anyways. (IE, Firefox, Opera, Chrome)
They could, but if they (hypothetically, of course) were forced to bundle other browsers with their OS then there wouldn't be a problem with keeping IE with Windows 7. But it is a good point: which browsers do you include?

You could say popularity/marketshare, but then how many do you add to the default install? Firefox, Opera, and Chrome are good choices.

Reality is that Microsoft is being forced to remove a core part of their users 'experience'. I do not like Microsoft's business practices (or marketing campaigns) but this judgment will have a more severe impact on the people who are buying copies of Windows 7 than those purchasing new computers with Windows 7 on them. OEMs will throw a web-browser onto the machines they sell before sending them out, but people upgrading to Windows 7 might encounter a few more difficulties.
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Old 24th Jun 2009, 16:23   #16
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What is in it for Microsoft having their browser in a system? The only way I can see that they could make money from it is the search and the home screen if it left at default.

Rather than put resources towards a bad browser that artificially gets them a few extra hits, why not sort out their search and make it a place people want to go?
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 09:54   #17
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim S
You can disable it, which some would argue is a happy medium, but I believe the option to remove it altogether should be there.
Not to mention a number of applications - Windows Media Player for example - 'cheat' by embedding Internet Explorer windows into their interface for some functionality, on Vista and XP for certain, at least so you definitely have the issue of reduced usability were it removed entirely.
Forget WMP, Steam has IE embedded in it, and that is my biggest worry. I'd like to see if Valve release a version of Steam that will run with whichever browser you have installed/set as default, but I can't see that happening somehow, so I for one will have IE installed. *sigh*
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