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julieb · 26th Aug 2010, 09:36

The National Museum of Computing has played host to an interesting experiment in retro coding.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/20...ding-lessons/1

liratheal · 26th Aug 2010, 09:47

Problem is, it's not going to make users do fewer stupid things.

Nice idea, if unlikely to be well received by any but us "enthusiasts"

mclean007 · 26th Aug 2010, 09:58

Awesome idea. I learnt to code on a BBC Micro, first with BASIC then with assembly language, and it really doesn't get closer to the metal than that. Even just using the machine required an understanding of using a command line. Then I progressed to the Acorn Archimedes with its RISC instruction set and learnt assembly all over again. Then I moved on to a 386 and had all the fun of dealing with the command line, batch files, extended memory headaches, qBASIC, and progressed to Pascal and C/C++. God I'm showing my age! Anyway, that basis gave me a solid understanding of the principles common to all computing systems, that anyone learning about computers by using a modern PC would simply never get.

For writing practical programs, modern systems are all very well - you can put together an app with a GUI that does something useful in about 10 lines of code, but it shows you nothing about all the stuff going on to actually make it work - memory allocation, resource management, threading / time-slicing and all the complexities of a modern multitasking graphical OS on modern hardware (multiple cores, processing on multiple platforms - GPU, CPU etc.) mean that writing in pure assembly would be totally impractical and that layers of APIs are needed to make things work, but all that abstraction obscures the important issue (for a computing student) of HOW things work.

StoneyMahoney · 26th Aug 2010, 10:47

I promised myself I would never say anything this lame on the Internet without it somehow being sarcastic and cutting to some poor idiot, but I'm going to say it anyway.

ZOMG!! PDP-8!!!

Okay, I've got the over-enthusiasm out of my system, normal operation shall resume shortly after I find some sedatives.

phuzz · 26th Aug 2010, 12:29

In my uni course we had a module on basic computing, we went from building a simple counting circuit (where the 'clock' was me moving a wire between two connections) up to basic coding in assembly on something so old I didn't recognise it . Really helped me get an idea of the more low level stuff.

Xir · 26th Aug 2010, 13:24

Started with Basic on a Commodore C16

But ehhh:

Quote:

In order to make computers of that era do anything - even if it's just to start loading a game from a tape - you have to write a simple program

Weeelllll, Basic does that. MS-DOS does that. HECK, Linux does that till the day of today.

They could learn this on a modern system (something unix based without the desktop loaded)

Gareth Halfacree · 26th Aug 2010, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xir

Weeelllll, Basic does that.

Yes, which was my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xir

MS-DOS does that. HECK, Linux does that till the day of today.

I'd disagree: running a command isn't the same as writing a program. Sure, you can use shell scripts (or batch files, if you're a DOS-head) to do things - but that's a scripting language, not a programming language. You try doing something at an sh shell with no access to external programs - you're going to struggle!

Scripting != Programming, at least in my opinion. Your mileage may differ. Void where prohibited. Probably contains traces of nuts. Keep out of children.

WildThing · 26th Aug 2010, 13:48

Great idea imo! This is certainly something I would benefit from. While my programming knowledge is abysmal, I would still love to learn more about how computers actually work.

general22 · 27th Aug 2010, 02:11

It's a good idea to do some low-level programming even if it's a little frustrating sometimes, it gives you a better appreciation for high-level languages and increases your knowledge of the underlying CPU and memory processes.

I think that programming in binary is a step too far and a pointless exercise at best. Programming in the assembly language of a simple RISC architecture is a better idea and teaches you the concepts of the stored program model we use on computers today. You can also do this in an emulator of some sort on any modern computer.

thehippoz · 27th Aug 2010, 06:16

ah now that's a good class.. poke and peek registers =] when I was a kid I think I memorized most of the common registers used on the atari 800xl you had msb (most significant byte) and lsb for some and you always used variables to save memory.. fun stuff

Ending Credits · 27th Aug 2010, 10:40

Pah, we learn assembler in electronics.

Also, since when did ICT actually become about computers?

It seems like a good idea though. More people need to learn how computers actually work.

Coltch · 27th Aug 2010, 12:52

"Also, since when did ICT actually become about computers?"

I think since far too many people think learning office means they are a computer wizz, as that's all ICT seems to basically concentrate on.

Learnt BASIC on my Speccy, then again on the BBC, then again on the C64!! - still have my programmers reference guide for the C64. although most of the POKE and PEEK commands I used were for unlimited lives in games etc.

yakyb · 27th Aug 2010, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltch

Learnt BASIC on my Speccy, then again on the BBC, then again on the C64!! - still have my programmers reference guide for the C64. although most of the POKE and PEEK commands I used were for unlimited lives in games etc.

I went Spectrum -> QBasic -> Some Casio calculator basic variant -> VBA ->SQL + C#

with the odd other little bit here and there

Fizzl · 28th Aug 2010, 19:49

My first bit of programming was on a ZX Spectrum +3 with 128 KB RAM!

But I'm not sure you need to go back that far .. so long as you learn how to use C properly (Malloc, Pointers, Garbage Collection) you will be miles ahead of the competition.

Boogle · 29th Aug 2010, 17:55

I think it's a fantastic idea. Although I suspect the fact the course went down well means the participants were, shall we say, 'cherry picked'.

We did assembly / binary when I was at college, and no where near enough of it imho. Still having knowledge of how things work, and the mental structure for dealing with things from the base up has really helped me immensely in the commerical world.

26th Aug 2010, 09:36	#1
julieb CustomPC Staff Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 47	TNMOC hosts retro-coding lessons The National Museum of Computing has played host to an interesting experiment in retro coding. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/20...ding-lessons/1

26th Aug 2010, 09:47	#2
liratheal Sharing is caring Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lichfield, UK Posts: 6,949	Problem is, it's not going to make users do fewer stupid things. Nice idea, if unlikely to be well received by any but us "enthusiasts" __________________ Desktop: Asus Sabertooth X58, 12gb Corsair XMS3, i7 950, 2x XFX 6870 1gb's, Corsair 1kw Laptop: Alienware M15x, 5730 1gb, 8gb DDR3, i5 520M, Samsung 830 256gb, Seagate Momentus XT 500gb WHS: Gigabyte Z77-D3h, i3 2100, 16gb DDR3, 5xWD 1tb, 5x Seagate 1tb I game, Do you?

26th Aug 2010, 09:58	#3
mclean007 Officious Bystander Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nodnol Posts: 1,974	Awesome idea. I learnt to code on a BBC Micro, first with BASIC then with assembly language, and it really doesn't get closer to the metal than that. Even just using the machine required an understanding of using a command line. Then I progressed to the Acorn Archimedes with its RISC instruction set and learnt assembly all over again. Then I moved on to a 386 and had all the fun of dealing with the command line, batch files, extended memory headaches, qBASIC, and progressed to Pascal and C/C++. God I'm showing my age! Anyway, that basis gave me a solid understanding of the principles common to all computing systems, that anyone learning about computers by using a modern PC would simply never get. For writing practical programs, modern systems are all very well - you can put together an app with a GUI that does something useful in about 10 lines of code, but it shows you nothing about all the stuff going on to actually make it work - memory allocation, resource management, threading / time-slicing and all the complexities of a modern multitasking graphical OS on modern hardware (multiple cores, processing on multiple platforms - GPU, CPU etc.) mean that writing in pure assembly would be totally impractical and that layers of APIs are needed to make things work, but all that abstraction obscures the important issue (for a computing student) of HOW things work. __________________ My Flickr

26th Aug 2010, 13:48	#8
WildThing Hypermodder Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 729	Great idea imo! This is certainly something I would benefit from. While my programming knowledge is abysmal, I would still love to learn more about how computers actually work. __________________ Asus P8P67 PRO ¦ Intel i5 2500K @ 4.4GHz ¦ Titan Fenrir ¦ XFX 6950 @ 6970 ¦ 2x4GB Corsair DDR3 1600MHz ¦ 2x Crucial C300 128GB (OS + Games) ¦ Samsung Spinpoint F3 1TB ¦ Auzentech XFI-Prelude + Creative T7700 7.1¦ Enermax Liberty 500W ¦ Corsair 650D case ¦ HP 24" LP2475W ¦ Win7 x64

27th Aug 2010, 12:52	#12
Coltch Multimodder Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Oxford Posts: 211	"Also, since when did ICT actually become about computers?" I think since far too many people think learning office means they are a computer wizz, as that's all ICT seems to basically concentrate on. Learnt BASIC on my Speccy, then again on the BBC, then again on the C64!! - still have my programmers reference guide for the C64. although most of the POKE and PEEK commands I used were for unlimited lives in games etc. __________________ Main Rig: C= Amiga A1200, ACA1231 (68030 @ 42MHz, 64MB RAM), 4GB CF HDD HTPC: E8400, HD5830, 4GB RAM, EK blocks, 1.5TB HDD's

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26th Aug 2010, 10:47	#4
StoneyMahoney Multimodder Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Stanford-Le-Hope, Essex Posts: 219	I promised myself I would never say anything this lame on the Internet without it somehow being sarcastic and cutting to some poor idiot, but I'm going to say it anyway. ZOMG!! PDP-8!!! Okay, I've got the over-enthusiasm out of my system, normal operation shall resume shortly after I find some sedatives.

26th Aug 2010, 12:29	#5
phuzz This is a title Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 1,286	In my uni course we had a module on basic computing, we went from building a simple counting circuit (where the 'clock' was me moving a wire between two connections) up to basic coding in assembly on something so old I didn't recognise it . Really helped me get an idea of the more low level stuff.

27th Aug 2010, 02:11	#9
general22 Multimodder Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 190	It's a good idea to do some low-level programming even if it's a little frustrating sometimes, it gives you a better appreciation for high-level languages and increases your knowledge of the underlying CPU and memory processes. I think that programming in binary is a step too far and a pointless exercise at best. Programming in the assembly language of a simple RISC architecture is a better idea and teaches you the concepts of the stored program model we use on computers today. You can also do this in an emulator of some sort on any modern computer.

27th Aug 2010, 06:16	#10
thehippoz Banned Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 5,780	ah now that's a good class.. poke and peek registers =] when I was a kid I think I memorized most of the common registers used on the atari 800xl you had msb (most significant byte) and lsb for some and you always used variables to save memory.. fun stuff

28th Aug 2010, 19:49	#14
Fizzl 69 Dude!! Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 69	My first bit of programming was on a ZX Spectrum +3 with 128 KB RAM! But I'm not sure you need to go back that far .. so long as you learn how to use C properly (Malloc, Pointers, Garbage Collection) you will be miles ahead of the competition.

29th Aug 2010, 17:55	#15
Boogle Supermodder Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK Posts: 281	I think it's a fantastic idea. Although I suspect the fact the course went down well means the participants were, shall we say, 'cherry picked'. We did assembly / binary when I was at college, and no where near enough of it imho. Still having knowledge of how things work, and the mental structure for dealing with things from the base up has really helped me immensely in the commerical world.