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Old 6th Mar 2011, 15:09   #61
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Re-organizing computer hardware for unique case design - sounds like I'm following this.

Just one question, why full ATX form factor motherboard?
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 13:40   #62
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 13:52   #63
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Looks good so far, will be keeping my eye on updates!
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 14:03   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheapskate View Post
D**************mmmmn, baby! -This has, 'motherboard as frame' written all over it!

Ethylene Glycol has a down side. It works great to prevent boiling over in a high temp system, but when added to a pc system, it raises the temperatures. It also attacks polycarbonate. I learned the last on the hard way.
TL;DR= EG will overheat a rig. Use it sparingly.
Cheaps is right about this stuff. There are some additives for preventing corrosion in bimetal systems but these solutions wear out over time because they work using Ion exchange. Eventually you will end up with really expensive tap water.
Cars can get away with mixed metal and Ethylene Glycol Systems because the is so much more heat produced over a larger area.

The best way to ensure corrosion doesn't happen to you is to not mix metals.
Would hate to see an Attila mod succumb to galvanic corrosion.

-Your Friendly Neighborhood Metallurgist

Last edited by saxman; 7th Mar 2011 at 14:22.
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 15:42   #65
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 15:52   #66
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 19:22   #67
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wow very nice so far, although and I know its not really needed but I think a full coverage water block would just look cleaner but I understand that would be more difficult to design.
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 21:38   #68
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I'm so impressed by those bends. Never seen a GPU orientation like that before, but it looks awesome. I'll be keeping an eye on this.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 00:26   #69
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 00:54   #70
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I'm using the same GPU orientation in K3N. Good to see I'm not on my own in it ...And looking forward for the rest of course
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 05:26   #71
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I love the idea of changing the orientation of the GPU. That is an idea that I've already had in my mind for some point down the road. I don't really understand why you use such thick alu. That alu is like 3 times thicker than it needs to be to accomplish the same thing. I must say that those bends look excellent. I never get over your tenacity when it comes to filing.

I've been watercooling now for about 6 years, which may or may not mean squat, but I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I'm not trying to ride a hobby-horse, but as a general rule, there is good reason why watercoolers have harped and harped on not using alu with copper. There have been multiplied examples of corrosion. The Apogee GTX "military grade anodized" alu top was the apex of this. There were gobs of people that ended up with corroded tops. The gunk from corrosion will work its way throughout a loop. Koolance among others also used to make alu rads, which were nothing but trouble. It is because of the problems associated with corrosion that you don't see many alu watercooling parts anymore-thankfully.

You won't have trouble in a car, as a car is designed to run 50/50 ethylene glycol. The corrosion inhibitors in the antifreeze moderate the problem. As most of us probably know however, ethylene glycol lowers the efficiency of the water in its ability to transfer heat. Hence, car radiators are sized accordingly to account for this.

A really solid anodizing of the alu blocks can mitigate the corrosion issue as the anodizing creates a barrier between the alu and the water. The anodizing however needs to be flawless, as just one exposed part can lead to problems. If you run around 20% antifreeze or like substance with good corrosion inhibitors, and flush things out regularly, you can slow the corrosion process down to the point of being insignificant. Obviously its not the ethylene glycol that is needed in mixed-metal loops, it is the corrosion inhibitors included in antifreeze, and antifreeze is a cheap solution. Most people however don't want to mess with having to run corrosion inhibitors, and deal with any potential gunk issues.

So to boil it down, if you get a good, solid anodizing layer on the blocks, use a good dose of anti-corrosive, and flush regularly, you will do fine. It is just so much easier using distilled water with a killcoil or biocide and being done with it. You also don't loose any heat transferring efficiency that may occur with certain anti-corrosives.

Now I'll move on to admiring your excellent work as always.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 05:57   #72
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Diethylene glycol might be a better choice-it's more efficient than ethylene at corrosion protection, so it takes less to achieve the benefit.

If you were in the US, I'd HAZMAT-ship you some from the lab. I've got a fluid here that has a chunk of aluminum tied to a chunk of copper with steel wire and no corrosion after eight months. It's not even DEG but something more umm... strange but it's pretty much dead even with DI water for cooling capacity and still works just fine with any metals.

If you ever get a hankering to mess with chemicals and want to try it, LMK and I'll get you the formulas.

Also, for DEG, it's the same as G48 Glysantin (as opposed to G11 or G12 Pentosin) and in the US is marketed as Zerex G05 at NAPA and other auto supply chains. That's where I get mine, and I get it undyed as G05 so I can add any color I want to it.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 06:37   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voigts View Post
I love the idea of changing the orientation of the GPU. That is an idea that I've already had in my mind for some point down the road. I don't really understand why you use such thick alu. That alu is like 3 times thicker than it needs to be to accomplish the same thing. I must say that those bends look excellent. I never get over your tenacity when it comes to filing.
Its only 3mm alu... I know it would be strong just being 1mm but dosen't look anyway near as good as 3mm... I think 3x the filing is worth the look...
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 10:47   #74
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 11:03   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KayinBlack View Post
Diethylene glycol might be a better choice-it's more efficient than ethylene at corrosion protection, so it takes less to achieve the benefit.

If you were in the US, I'd HAZMAT-ship you some from the lab. I've got a fluid here that has a chunk of aluminum tied to a chunk of copper with steel wire and no corrosion after eight months. It's not even DEG but something more umm... strange but it's pretty much dead even with DI water for cooling capacity and still works just fine with any metals.

If you ever get a hankering to mess with chemicals and want to try it, LMK and I'll get you the formulas.

Also, for DEG, it's the same as G48 Glysantin (as opposed to G11 or G12 Pentosin) and in the US is marketed as Zerex G05 at NAPA and other auto supply chains. That's where I get mine, and I get it undyed as G05 so I can add any color I want to it.
Sounds interesting. What's this strange liquid called?

Alternatively, some companies still reclaim Fluorinert (Perfluorcarbon PF-5080 or similar). A bit pricey but fill-and-forget: no corrosion, no conductivity, no bacterial growth: 100% inert.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 11:28   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemerich View Post
I am really considering to make a alu case. Great deal of my inspiration for my next project come from your projects.

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As a matter of fact, you can go to the "Santa Efigenia" street to get those. They have plenty of those things in the transversal streets. Not exactly sure where...
Thanks Yemerich. I'm glad my work has inspired you.

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wow that is amazing work! Could you please write a handbook or something? I'd definitely be the first one to get myself a copy! Really want to learn a lot from you.
Thank you. You can start here.

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Originally Posted by Marcos_Viegas View Post
WOW... i see another "case of year" coming...
Haha., well thank you, but this may not even be finished this year. Though I'll try.

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Originally Posted by Waynio View Post
Yeah I'm still not up to the challenge of grand file master Attila , but it's not just the workmanship that goes into his projects, the designs are incredible also oh & the never ending quest for sheer perfection .
I don't know mate, your filing looks pretty good to me.

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Originally Posted by riekmaharg2 View Post
Yet another A* project in the making
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyAero View Post
Re-organizing computer hardware for unique case design - sounds like I'm following this.

Just one question, why full ATX form factor motherboard?
It's a mATX board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GravitySmacked View Post
Popcorn purchased, plently of beer in the fridge, going to sit back and enjoy the thread
Haha, thanks mate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by searching View Post
Looks good so far, will be keeping my eye on updates!
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by saxman View Post
Cheaps is right about this stuff. There are some additives for preventing corrosion in bimetal systems but these solutions wear out over time because they work using Ion exchange. Eventually you will end up with really expensive tap water.
Cars can get away with mixed metal and Ethylene Glycol Systems because the is so much more heat produced over a larger area.

The best way to ensure corrosion doesn't happen to you is to not mix metals.
Would hate to see an Attila mod succumb to galvanic corrosion.

-Your Friendly Neighborhood Metallurgist
Thanks, see below.

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Originally Posted by perplekks45 View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingers66 View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn View Post
wow very nice so far, although and I know its not really needed but I think a full coverage water block would just look cleaner but I understand that would be more difficult to design.
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartwood89 View Post
I'm so impressed by those bends. Never seen a GPU orientation like that before, but it looks awesome. I'll be keeping an eye on this.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Multiplectic View Post
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Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtek View Post
I'm using the same GPU orientation in K3N. Good to see I'm not on my own in it ...And looking forward for the rest of course
Thanks. Yeah, This way of mounting a GFX card can highlight some of the awesome coolers out there, save space and, at the same time obscure the ugly side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voigts View Post
I love the idea of changing the orientation of the GPU. That is an idea that I've already had in my mind for some point down the road. I don't really understand why you use such thick alu. That alu is like 3 times thicker than it needs to be to accomplish the same thing. I must say that those bends look excellent. I never get over your tenacity when it comes to filing.

I've been watercooling now for about 6 years, which may or may not mean squat, but I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I'm not trying to ride a hobby-horse, but as a general rule, there is good reason why watercoolers have harped and harped on not using alu with copper. There have been multiplied examples of corrosion. The Apogee GTX "military grade anodized" alu top was the apex of this. There were gobs of people that ended up with corroded tops. The gunk from corrosion will work its way throughout a loop. Koolance among others also used to make alu rads, which were nothing but trouble. It is because of the problems associated with corrosion that you don't see many alu watercooling parts anymore-thankfully.

You won't have trouble in a car, as a car is designed to run 50/50 ethylene glycol. The corrosion inhibitors in the antifreeze moderate the problem. As most of us probably know however, ethylene glycol lowers the efficiency of the water in its ability to transfer heat. Hence, car radiators are sized accordingly to account for this.

A really solid anodizing of the alu blocks can mitigate the corrosion issue as the anodizing creates a barrier between the alu and the water. The anodizing however needs to be flawless, as just one exposed part can lead to problems. If you run around 20% antifreeze or like substance with good corrosion inhibitors, and flush things out regularly, you can slow the corrosion process down to the point of being insignificant. Obviously its not the ethylene glycol that is needed in mixed-metal loops, it is the corrosion inhibitors included in antifreeze, and antifreeze is a cheap solution. Most people however don't want to mess with having to run corrosion inhibitors, and deal with any potential gunk issues.

So to boil it down, if you get a good, solid anodizing layer on the blocks, use a good dose of anti-corrosive, and flush regularly, you will do fine. It is just so much easier using distilled water with a killcoil or biocide and being done with it. You also don't loose any heat transferring efficiency that may occur with certain anti-corrosives.

Now I'll move on to admiring your excellent work as always.
Thanks voigts. I've got a lot of 4 mm plate here left over from Na'ir, but this part is also a main structural part tying in all the major components of the chassis. It needs to be strong.
See below about the WC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KayinBlack View Post
Diethylene glycol might be a better choice-it's more efficient than ethylene at corrosion protection, so it takes less to achieve the benefit.

If you were in the US, I'd HAZMAT-ship you some from the lab. I've got a fluid here that has a chunk of aluminum tied to a chunk of copper with steel wire and no corrosion after eight months. It's not even DEG but something more umm... strange but it's pretty much dead even with DI water for cooling capacity and still works just fine with any metals.

If you ever get a hankering to mess with chemicals and want to try it, LMK and I'll get you the formulas.

Also, for DEG, it's the same as G48 Glysantin (as opposed to G11 or G12 Pentosin) and in the US is marketed as Zerex G05 at NAPA and other auto supply chains. That's where I get mine, and I get it undyed as G05 so I can add any color I want to it.
Wow! Thanks for all that info Kayin. I've copied and saved this for further perusal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavidsonRecord View Post
Its only 3mm alu... I know it would be strong just being 1mm but dosen't look anyway near as good as 3mm... I think 3x the filing is worth the look...
It's 4 mm, but you are right mate, it looks cool.


Now, first of all, I cant believe this amazing response to the start of this project, WOW!

Concerning the corrosion problem, thanks for all your replies and advice. I am aware of this problem and I will experiment with the system as a whole when I've made (and purchased) all the loop components. The aluminium parts will be hard anodised and if necessary, the copper parts will be re-made in alu as well. Some form of corrosion inhibitor will be used, and thanks to Kayin for the list of alternatives. That I'm not as concerned as some of you boils down to the fact that what I'm making here has a very limited working life (as a functioning PC, though not as an 'object'). This cooling system is designed and made specifically for this project, this case, this hardware etc. The CPU block will probably not be suitable for any other motherboard. In short this project has to function as a PC but it doesn't have to do this forever. Na'ir al Saif has been sitting on my desk since October last year being used as my main rig. It will be my main rig till it's replaced by this one. And on it goes...................


I haven't been able to make anything really new because of some redesign work on the main parts of the chassis. Because of this, the mobo/GFX tray had to be re-made so this took some time but it actually saves time in the long run, because it makes the chassis much more rigid and also gets rid of six parts that were used to connect the old tray and two of the bulkheads to the third (front) bulkhead. So only a few pics this time, because I did some things differently from last time.

Here you can see the new part is larger than the old one.





I had some problems with the c/s on the old board but some lubricating fluid fixed that.



Instead of routing a channel for the bends, this time, I cut a small trench with the hack saw and then filed the 'V' groove to depth.





And the new part.







Now, next time I should have something new to show you.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 11:32   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
Sounds interesting. What's this strange liquid called?

Alternatively, some companies still reclaim Fluorinert (Perfluorcarbon PF-5080 or similar). A bit pricey but fill-and-forget: no corrosion, no conductivity, no bacterial growth: 100% inert.
I've looked into Flourinert and would love to use this stuff. But four hundred bucks a litre is just crazy. If anyone knows of a cheaper source (MUCH cheaper ) please share your info.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 12:10   #78
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^^ Did you just quote 18 different questions in a single post? +repworthy!

Oh, and the case is coming along too!
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 12:31   #79
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 248
Blooddrunken has yet to learn the way of the Dremel
It's looking so awesome. crazy.
When I checked some german watercooling stores for fluids for my build I saw the Double Protect Ultra from Aqua-Computer.
Quote:
DP Ultra is produced from high-quality absultely pure components in germany. It has been specifically designed for the requirements of PC watercooling systems which use often mixed materials like copper and alumnium.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 14:35   #80
Waynio
Mmmm Donuts
 
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 4,928
Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.Waynio is definitely a rep cheat.
Wow $400 per litre I would say get them to sponsor you but I think you'd be better off finding an alternative solution .

I love this method for bending thick alu, I first seen it on NavidsonRecord's log, I just didn't think too far into it that with some sturdy extra supports can make it totally strong .
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