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Old 6th Sep 2011, 23:07   #1
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My GT4 Build Thread! [Planning Stage]

[06-09-11 - The Initial Question ;-)]

Good evening bit-tech. Just wondering if anyone had any idea what a reasonable estimation for boring and sleeving a 4 cylinder short block might be? Several of you will no doubt know why I am enquiring about this Not that it makes any difference, but the block in question needs to be bored and sleeved with cylinder liners because of a crack in one cylinder, and also as I'm going to be using cast sleeves it will aid the durability of the cylinders.

I've asked a local company via email to quote me for the work but who knows when they'll get back to me - hopefully in the morning - but in the meantime I thought someone here might have some input.

Thanks!

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[UPDATE 11-11-11 - The Planning Begins!]

May as well go for it now! Let's call this a planning thread for the moment In case anyone doesn't know what this is all about, here's a little on what this is and why I'm doing it;

I've always wanted to build a custom Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205. It's early 1990's 3S-GTE engine is still one of the best engines ever built by Toyota, and almost two decades after they first made an appearance, there is a really strong enthusiast community behind the 3S engine with an unbelievable number of aftermarket options to increase the performance of the 2 litre block, which makes 255bhp as standard (Japanese Domestic Market spec). I'm aiming for a weekend/trackday car with this build, but I'm only planning it for now. I've tried to restrain myself from planning it for ages because I knew that I'd be tortured waiting for the opportune moment to start the project, but I've had enough of waiting. I'm putting the planning thread here because I know there are several gearheads on bit tech but I'm also discussing various aspects of it on a couple of other Celica forums such as 6gc.net and GT4OC.net. My lack of any personal projects for the past few years has spurred me on to begin planning this and push forward with it. It'll give me a good excuse to force myself to make some spare time to work on something for myself. There are several large PC projects that I've had ideas about for a while and would like to see come to fruition, but in terms of pure pride of ownership and satisfaction, this one will blow them all away. Believe it or not, designing, building and repairing things for other people doesn't give you the same satisfaction as something that's just for you. This one's just for me It's really early days for this project that will realistically take me several years to complete, but I have to start somewhere! It only gets closer to a reality from here I hope you come along for the ride on this one and I will appreciate all the input and advice that I can get from the good people of bit-tech

If this thread ends up being just half as interesting as GOO's then I'll be elated ;-)

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[UPDATE 26-05-12 - Planning Continues & Club/Community Memberships]

As of May 2012, I have joined the following GT-Four, Celica or 3SGTE engine related forums and clubs;


There is a wealth of information on these various forums and a massive number of very experienced GT-Four owners, builders and racers - all of which is going to be of huge benefit to me as I plan and execute the build.
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Last edited by Unicorn; 25th Feb 2013 at 11:21. Reason: Title change & summary update
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 07:22   #2
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$1500 minus the core charge since you are providing the block. That is a job well done, in the US, and I haven't shopped around much; so YMMV.

EDIT: It does however, leave you with a block capable of up to 40psi of boost.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 07:50   #3
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Unless it's a cold day, good luck getting much more than ~20psi... even that much costs money!

There's lots of really well engineered engines these days... you can spend heaps and still have something that's not as good as cheaper engines available from wreckers/importers/etc.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 12:30   #4
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Thanks for the replies guys. Yes it seems you were right Johnny - the local company sent me a very helpful email this morning stating that it can of course be done and that they would be happy to help, but that it would be a lot more expensive than buying a new block and that it would actually be more prone to failure than a bored or even standard block with forged internals. Oh well, no harm done - I'll just keep looking for a better block then. No point in wasting money on something that's going to run me into thousands just to get it running again

By the way, when all's said and done, I think the very most I'll be putting through it will be 20psi (1.4 bar). I know the type of block in question has been heavily modified to take much more in the past, but 20 will be plenty to get me where I want to be performance wise. It's a 17 year old engine design but I have been advised several times to make 20 the safe limit and the absolute limit 30 (1.9-2.0 bar) and build it as a stroker to get more power with reliability and less headaches in the long run.

Don't get too excited though, I am talking about a project that you can't measure in months, this is the start of a project that will last years

Apparently the cracked block has only 60K miles on it. It seems strange that such a usually reliable block would crack after that long under normal conditions. Maybe I'm better to stay well away from it.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 12:56   #5
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ooo i want to know what your building!
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 13:37   #6
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All things being well, I will be building on of these:



Have you guessed what it is yet?

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No?

It's a Toyota 3SGTE engine. This picture is not mine, it belongs to the admin of the turbomr2 site, but this is pretty much what mine could look and perform like. I also won't be putting it into an MR2, I will be putting it in an ST205 Celica

Still need to find the right block to start with though
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 14:33   #7
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What figures do you expect at the fly from 20psi on the 3SGTE? What capacity are you wanting to stroke up to?

[edit] A guy on youtube quotes 260whp and 320wtq on an MR2 with 20psi/2100cc, so slightly less on a 4wd Celica will be quite nice!
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 15:23   #8
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As far as the engine build project goes, I'd like to set a "conservative" target of 350 at the flywheel to begin with, I'm not really sure what to expect with 20psi (standard is 10psi) but if I had to guess, I would say with the bigger inlets and bigger turbo at 20, I'll get just less than what he's getting (250 awhp would be really nice but it'll obviously be less than on a rwd MR2). That's including a forged 2.2 stroker kit with longer duration cams. So basically, hopefully I can get 350 at the fly with the upgraded internals and 20psi on the better turbo.

To be honest, I'll get it running with what I know I want to put in, and take it from there. If I find that it's making much less power than I wanted to and need to change something, I'll do that. The idea of the "engine first" thing is that I have all but the minor engine work done before it even makes it into the car. Whether that's wise or not is your own opinion, but IMO there's no point in having a whole car sitting in the yard or garage for a year longer than it has to whilst I work on the engine

Got a link to that video? I'm trying to get all the figures and do all the research I can!

For those who don't know their Toyota engines, there's 600+ hp in the 3rd generation 3SGTE, and I've been for a ride in one GT-Four that had 650 at the flywheel on race fuel, but realistically I will never get mine to that standard because there's no way I will be putting a year's salary into the engine.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 17:25   #9
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Doesn't look like the block I was thinking of is going to sell... Only 10 minutes left on it at the moment and no bidders. I guess everyone who has looked at it knows they're gonna have to put almost a grand into it just to get it running again.

I had been toying with the idea of buying it no matter what, and using it as a teaching project at a local youth club that I used to help out at, with the dual purpose of being my project engine, but having seen the cost and been advised against spending money on it I've changed my mind on that.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 01:30   #10
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Bad luck with that 3sgte, those are pretty good engines... that one must have had a pretty wild life!

Have you considered doing up something more modern?
Like how about one of the recent 2.4 vvti blocks?
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 02:11   #11
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There was definitely something majorly wrong with it, only 60K miles and a large crack like that... doesn't add up. I think I was probably best to let it go.

I have considered doing up something much more modern, such as the fantastic 2AZ-FE, but all in good time. I have wanted to build a 3SGTE powered ST205 for a long long time, so I'm starting there and we'll see what I end up with down the road

Actually the 3SGTE is much more powerful from the factory than the 2.4 VVTi engine, although obviously with a rebuild and some tuning it can more than hold it's own. If I was going for something more modern though, I would have the 1.8 ZZ-GE powered 7th Gen Celica GT. It is relatively simple to obtain big numbers from that already excellent engine, and it has the benefit of being in a much younger (and very nice looking) car. FWD though, so many people say that torque steer is a problem on the GT.

[edit]

I registered over on 6gc.net the other night so I could start getting to know people. Hopefully if I need it along the way, some people will be willing to help out with useful info and contacts!
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 11:38   #12
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Yes the turbo 3SGTE is more powerful than any factory 2.4 VVTI... but imagine working and whacking a turbo on the 2.4... bore it out to ~2.5 perhaps
Even though the variable intakes will basically need to be disabled, there's still plenty of newer tech in there to mean it's got more potential than just ~50% extra capacity. The weight might possibly be similar, if you use one with a plastic intake manifold - I'm not 100% sure if they all came out plastic intakes, I haven't even checked the weights, just throwing out ideas for ya

I'm very interested in this because I'd like to do up an MR2 one day (poor man's Ferrari )
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:00   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvagusta View Post
Yes the turbo 3SGTE is more powerful than any factory 2.4 VVTI... but imagine working and whacking a turbo on the 2.4... bore it out to ~2.5 perhaps
Even though the variable intakes will basically need to be disabled, there's still plenty of newer tech in there to mean it's got more potential than just ~50% extra capacity. The weight might possibly be similar, if you use one with a plastic intake manifold - I'm not 100% sure if they all came out plastic intakes, I haven't even checked the weights, just throwing out ideas for ya

I'm very interested in this because I'd like to do up an MR2 one day (poor man's Ferrari )
Well in that case, you'll be very interested in this. That's the article I borrowed the pic above from. It's the best logged and tidiest 3SGTE build I've ever seen. I read the entire thing in one night, start to finish Unfortunately he never actually updated the log to say how the engine was running or if he had dynoed or tuned it any, it ends kinda abruptly.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:27   #14
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Nice build log I like how he eliminated the distributor, but there's still no VVT and iirc, there's no oil squirter's to cool the pistons, etc.
But the main reason I'd like to use a bigger motor though, is mainly because I want to regularly take the thing drifting. I'd prefer a bigger motor, with plenty of low end, and quick to spool = less boost is necessary/greater reliability.

So can you do me a favor and rebuild a 2.4 as a 2.5L powerhouse, and log it? I'll give you a box of e-cookies!
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:38   #15
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What I've heard about the 3SGTE is that with a good 2.2 stroker kit, the forged rebuild with all the trimmings, a good aftermarket turbo like the Garret GT35 and the right map, you can drive it however you want on the roads all week long and not have any problems (provided, I assume, you use a turbo timer) and still take it to the track at the weekend to rip it up. So I'm told. What really interests me about the 3SGTE is the rallying background that it has - it's the WRC winning engine and the one that made the ST205 and it's older brother, the ST185 world famous rally champoins. I still don't think I'll ever need more than 25 PSI, but Tufan aka Tufy has ran his at up to 1.9 bar with a GT35R turbo and says it was completely reliable, as long as the turbo and engine were looked after sensibly.

As far as the oil squirters go, the NA 3SGE block apparently has "casting provisions" for the addition of them but the the 3SGTE actually does have them. Also the oil feed holes on both blocks can apparently be chamfered to increase and guarantee good oil supply. No VVT. It's an early 90's block
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:43   #16
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Hrrm, 3SGTE isn't as outdated as I thought it was then!

I try to drive sensibly on the roads, but I'd like to build a car not just for cruising, but also for ripping it up on the track most weekends. It might be a while yet before I do it, so who knows if I'd end up using an MR2 I'll probably build a nice go-kart before then
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:54   #17
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I didn't even mention hp figures there with that 2.2 stroker setup I was describing. 600bhp apparently. Anything more and you run into problems, at which point the top end enthusiasts have built 5SGTE's (a 5SFE and 3SGTE hybrid) to get past the 650bhp barrier.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 13:00   #18
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I wouldn't want a peaky setup like that, I'd much prefer a setup with plenty of low end and quick response/medium boost. A very drive-able ~350hp in a lightweight car would be perfect for me.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 13:06   #19
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Yeah, true. 350 in a lightweight would drive really nicely. Unfortunately the GT-Four is not a lightweight car. Heavy transmission, heavy drivetrain etc. Until you take weight loss measures with it, the road going version is kind of a fatty - which is why most of the guys who build them for dragging etc strip them out right down to the fireproof material on the floor pan.

I'm not going that far, I still want to to be usable as a normal car a couple of days of the week, but I'm not gonna lie, I want it to screeeam when you put your foot down! have a listen to this sucker between 0:10 and 0:15

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Old 9th Sep 2011, 13:23   #20
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mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.mvagusta is a hoopy frood who really knows where their towel is.
Oh yeah, also gotta make up for power train losses with AWD, ~600hp sounds pretty good, 5SGTE it is Those celicas were the best looking as well.

Nice sound alright, almost sounds like the batmobile. A mate used to have a VL commodore that sounded like that, those things left the factory with turbo Skyline drivelines.
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cars, engine, he is not a hair dresser!, ladas are better, motors, should have got an mr2, sleeving, tuning

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