Motors The Official bit-tech F1 2012 Thread - Post season

[RedFlames]

Originally Posted by alf-

But anyway, back on topic,
Anyone else read Schumachers and various other drivers criticisms towards the pirelli tires?

to sum it up, drivers are complaining about having to manage their tires so much.

personally, i really dislike the pirelli tires, the degradation is too artificial which in turn negatively affects the race (to me anyway) i don't want to see race results based on who can manage their tires the best.

That's part of the race... go fast[er] and risk ruining your tyres or try and eke them out a bit for a later/fewer pit-stops... The problem for pirelli is making tyres that degrade predictably and consistently, but not so quick that it gives the impression their tyres are crap...

The tires are even messing up qualifying. instead of trying their best to go as fast as they can, some drivers are simply not bothering as it makes more sense to save them for the race, whilst this is a interesting strategy, its not very entertaining to watch.

This however is annoying... personally i'd have the following...

don't set a time in q2/q3? to the back with you...
start on your quali lap tyres regardless of where you qualified, changes allowed for punctures/wet races as now... none of this '11th is the new pole' crap...
or just limit the number of tyres available in quali [i.e. force the teams to keep a fresh set of each tyre for the race]

[stonedsurd]

Originally Posted by RedFlames

or just limit the number of tyres available in quali [i.e. force the teams to keep a fresh set of each tyre for the race]

This. Restricting the tire choices would be best because it retains the element of strategy through qualifying and the race.

Failing this, just have qualifying tires and let Saturday be a giant free for all, and everyone starts on fresh tires come Sunday. Not the most electrifying idea, but still better than the boring Saturdays we have to deal with at the moment.

[Krikkit]

The way to do it is to have the team's giving back sets of tyres after quali, but keep the current Q3 rules, forcing everyone to set a full lap time.

To everyone saying the Pirelli's are too degradey, remember the Bridgestone days? The grass is always greener and all that...

[Joey Propane]

Originally Posted by Krikkit

To everyone saying the Pirelli's are too degradey, remember the Bridgestone days? The grass is always greener and all that...

2010 was the best season i've ever seen of Formula 1 and the closest...

[Canon]

Originally Posted by Krikkit

The way to do it is to have the team's giving back sets of tyres after quali, but keep the current Q3 rules, forcing everyone to set a full lap time.

To everyone saying the Pirelli's are too degradey, remember the Bridgestone days? The grass is always greener and all that...

Goodyear eagle pls.

[Dopeyman]

Originally Posted by Joey Propane

2010 was the best season i've ever seen of Formula 1 and the closest...

I agree with you completely but this year is shaping up to be a whole lot better

[Krikkit]

Originally Posted by Joey Propane

2010 was the best season i've ever seen of Formula 1 and the closest...

It was good in terms of the championship battle, but the actual races were dull. 2011 was the opposite - interesting races (after 1st), but a foregone conclusion about the WDC/CC. This year could well be both.

[alf-]

Originally Posted by RedFlames

That's part of the race... go fast[er] and risk ruining your tyres or try and eke them out a bit for a later/fewer pit-stops... The problem for pirelli is making tyres that degrade predictably and consistently, but not so quick that it gives the impression their tyres are crap...

Originally Posted by Krikkit

The way to do it is to have the team's giving back sets of tyres after quali, but keep the current Q3 rules, forcing everyone to set a full lap time.

To everyone saying the Pirelli's are too degradey, remember the Bridgestone days? The grass is always greener and all that...

whilst i agree we shouldn't go back to the bridge stones that lasted an entire race, i think the pirelli have gone too far in the other direction.

I don't really bemoan that the pirelli tires degrade, its the way they do it, they degrade too fast and too inconsistent, its just comes across as artificial.

Look at china, kimi loses 10 places in two laps because his tires fell off what must been a massive cliff.
whilst kimi was clearly pushing his tires, the absolute failure that followed was bizarre and a shame, i don't want to see drivers push themselves to the limit to make up positions trying to win a race, only to fail catastrophically because of deliberate design flaws within the tires.

[Dopeyman]

Originally Posted by alf-

whilst i agree we shouldn't go back to the bridge stones that lasted an entire race, i think the pirelli have gone too far in the other direction.

I don't really bemoan that the pirelli tires degrade, its the way they do it, they degrade too fast and too inconsistent, its just comes across as artificial.

Look at china, kimi loses 10 places in two laps because his tires fell off what must been a massive cliff.
whilst kimi was clearly pushing his tires, the absolute failure that followed was bizarre and a shame, i don't want to see drivers push themselves to the limit to make up positions trying to win a race, only to fail catastrophically because of deliberate design flaws within the tires.

He stopped less than others leaving a brand new set in the pits. How can he complain that his tyres didn't last? He took the risk and it didn't pay off.

[Krikkit]

I know what you mean alf - I was kinda playing devil's advocate there, I'd like to see perhaps a more consistent death to the Pirelli's, even if the actual life isn't extended.

Kimi's gamble is exactly the sort of strategy that I want to see - Dopey hits the nail on the head, if his gamble had paid off it would've been brilliant, as it was the risk was too big and came to naught.

[Dopeyman]

I guess with the temps Going up and down so much, different cars all treating their tyres differently, due to different setups, driving style ect, how are they meant to make the tyre more predictable?

Maybe the shouldn't have this cliff they talk about and make them die slower so they have a bit of notice to do something about it.

[BentAnat]

I don't mind the Pirellis much, but agree that all teams should bother more on Saturdays.
Maybe what Krikkit said there could work...

Th cliffy-nes of the Pirellis means a gamble goes south quickly, and I like that. It means that what happened to Kimi could happen to anyone, and it makes racing all the way to the finish line more likely. We've seen it in the last 3 races now that there's actual attempts at gaining a position or two being made on the final lap on the start-finish straight.
The pirellis have something to do with that.

IMHO, Schu is just hating because he can't get them to work properly and Nico can.

Thanks to (in part) the Pirellis, Bahrain was actually not a coplete snoozefest to watch...

[Throbbi]

Things should even out a little tyre wise once we hit Europe, the flyaways can always be a bit random for temperatures, we'll see what's what then I guess.

[RedFlames]

Originally Posted by alf-

I don't really bemoan that the pirelli tires degrade, its the way they do it, they degrade too fast and too inconsistent, its just comes across as artificial.

Look at china, kimi loses 10 places in two laps because his tires fell off what must been a massive cliff.

that is because, as far as my limited understanding goes, the degradation *is* artificial... they're designed to degrade, the problem is 'the cliff' when the try has completely degraded, if we have to have longer lasting tyres to avoid it [or make it less severe] so be it...

as i said before tyres that degrade too quickly [artificially or not] hurts pirelli as it gives the impression that their tyres are crap [and when all is said and done, they want to sell their tyres], but last too long and we're back to where we were with the seemingly everlasting bridgestones.

Also as the season progresses a team will get the hang of how the tyres work with their car and adjust accordingly, compare how long the tyres lasted in the early races to the later races last year [that said, I don't know if pirelli are allowed to change the tyre compounds during the season].

And has been said before, you have 24 different cars/drivers/driving styles so you're never going to get true consistency short of making them explode after x laps

[Dopeyman]

Yer I'm not complaining at all. We have not seen a single team do well for all the races. If it carries on like that all season I'll be happy.

The racing is so much closer than its ever been, this year several times we've seen 3 cars go into a corner together, when was the last time that happened!

I love f1 and have done all my life. It's better now than it has been for a very long time.

[BentAnat]

AFAIK, Pirelly changed compounds somewhere last season.
They should be allowed to do it.
But yeah - The Euro races will be more consistant in terms of temperature, and the teams will get to grips with the tires as well. They did last year, and they will this year.

I think what caught a few teams out in Bahrain was the fact that they expected track tempreatures of 40 degrees, and instead got 30.

10 degrees more or less makes a huge difference in the Pirellis (or seems to, at least), and if I were to hazard a guess, I'd guess that with 40 degrees, McLaren would have been quicker than they were.
Just like the cold temperatures in china seemed to have worked well for Mercedes.

[Dopeyman]

Let's hope it's nice and hot in Spain then

[BentAnat]

Consistant weather will do.
My guess is that McLaren (besides their pitstop troubles) just bet on the wrong horse in Bahrain. They set up the car for really hot tracks, and due to the chaneg in temperature, they couldn't find the speed through the corners, and shredded the tyres more than the other teams.

Stable weather means they can do the setup right.
So long as the pitcrew pulls their heads out of their backsides, they've still got all the right cards in their hand, IMHO.

[alf-]

Originally Posted by Dopeyman

He stopped less than others leaving a brand new set in the pits. How can he complain that his tyres didn't last? He took the risk and it didn't pay off.

At risk of beating a dying horse here, martin brundle sums up my fear of the pirellis in this article
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...ons-On-Bahrain

In eight days we have had two great races largely driven by the degradation and resultant strategy dilemmas around the Pirelli tyres. In our show I expressed an opinion that whilst I'm really enjoying the races I wouldn't want F1 to become only about the tyres. I hadn't realised that Michael Schumacher was about to launch a broadside at the difficulty of managing the narrow window of performance and the high drop off of the tyre grip.

On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits. 'Physically my granny could drive the race' quipped one to underline how far away from the limits they are.

Pirelli have done a great job for F1 and judging by audience figures and comments the fans love this style of unpredictable racing. But it does become confusing when we have drivers popping up out of the blue with a fast but unrepeatable lap time in a session, and fancied runners simply disappearing backwards in the race. We need to see pure skill, speed and pace win through too, and not simply just applaud those who could tip toe the best or find the right set-up sweetspot on the day. There is room for both.

[Jester_612]

I didn't think that the tyres were the whole issue before those choice driver comments. I thought that it's the collective regulations, the carry overs from the Bridgestones that was hurting my enjoyment. Those being Q3 tyre = start tyre and both compounds must be used in race. These Bridgestone rules were specifically introduced to bring diversity of strategy.

Also I've now given it a an entire season but I don't think DRS has worked, I was doubtful but accepting. It looks like teams have adapted, so either a mistake has occurred and there would have been a normal pass, or nothing happens.

So, race pace is actually the tyre pace, if I wanted random racing I'd watch NASCAR/Indycar or BTCC, I'm really leaning further to national formula series (F3, FR, FF & FBMW).

Anyway none of this F1 tyre marketing affects me, I'll still be using Kumho's.

Oh Throbbi, unless your family stage an intervention, then you're just fine