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Old 11th Jan 2012, 15:55   #101
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It's official, Lotus' reactive ride height system has been deemed legal:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96952
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 16:06   #102
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Was about to post that myself. It certainly looks interesting, Google Translate did a humorous job on the discussion ("Now the Lotus-Renault is preparing another devilry", "On the brakes when the driver steps on your foot on the left" etc.) and it sounds like it will be beneficial. Just how much so will be seen at Jerez.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 17:55   #103
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I noticed that Robert Kubica is trending on Twitter, looks like he's broken his leg after slipping over on an icy road (Italian Media reports).... poor guy, will he ever get a break? (no pun intended)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96958
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 19:34   #104
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Originally Posted by BentAnat View Post
There were two incidents in recent times where a low nose would have been better: The one involving Chandhok (and Shcumacher, was it?), and the one involving Webber and Heikki. Both would have been less dangerous if the car hadn't "counted" the other one.
My concerns are invalid, I was just stupid.

Now then, F Renault has low nose right google image search

And this is what happens in your scenarios (except this could be considered mild as that speed isn't as high as Webber's):



Edit: I've also heard about karts mounting people, but this is a family forum



From the diagram, I think it may have a floating caliper to recover the described brake torque, and hydraulically shove it to the end of the pushrod. Very neat, when I read brake torque, I thought ingenious.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 20:13   #105
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From the diagram, I think it may have a floating caliper to recover the described brake torque, and hydraulically shove it to the end of the pushrod. Very neat, when I read brake torque, I thought ingenious.
on my phone so havent seen said diagram yet but the sound of it brings concerns of a failure like Buemi had with wheels going pop. That was down to human error but that sounds like it would utilise the forces which caused that to happen so violently.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 05:26   #106
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Yup... so it's legal... we'll have to see what happens.
I am sure the top teams will have it in Jerez alredy if they deem it worthwhile (with the obvious possible exception being RBR - I can see Newey telling his teams that installing that system will screw with all his aero work).
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 07:25   #107
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'scuse the double post, but while discussing this with a mate, the following considerations came up regarding the trick suspension:

More stability under braking means a more linear brake progression, which makes threshold braking easier.
That in turn inspires confidence (together with the car being stable), leading to a possibly smoother racing line into the corners and later braking, while at the same time preserving tyres. This is a major consideration, IMHO.

The next consideration is the following:
Assuming (and I know what assumption is) that this thing responds ina set way to brake input (i.e. "at 90% of brake force, raise nose by 1mm"), this thing has a potential weakness:
As the car gets lighter, as tyre compounds change (knowing that a large part of an F1 car's suspension is in the tyres), the dipping and raising characteristics change. More weight shifting around means it dips and raises more.
Higher acceleration and braking forces means it dips and raises more.
So let's compare the early race to the late one:
+150kg, option tyre: Acceleration and braking is up from the primes, but weight and the softer compound means that this is the part of the race where the dipping under braking is the biggest issue.
Now let's assume that the car travels 50-100km/h in 1 second under full acceleration, the trick suspension offsets the forces (or part thereof) by ,say, 1mm, across .5 seconds.

Now let's look at the same thing later in the race:
car is +15kg, option tyre. The car accelerates better, brakes better, and the dipping is only made worse by the softer tyre.
Now it accelerates 50-100km/h in .8 seconds, and the trick suspension still offsets that by 1mm across .5 seconds, where really it should be offsetting that by .5mm normally (because weight is less), and another .5mm under braking/acceleration, but in less time.

The front wing has the advantage (in this case... stability wise I dare not comment on) that it's speed based. Higher acceleration means it pushes the car lower quicker. It also deals with gradual acceleration.

I might be completely wrong here, but unless this thing is way more tricked out than it seems to me (i.e. brake and throttle controlled, and weight sensors), it might be very close between this and the front wing...
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 08:19   #108
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Now that I've had a chance to properly look through that (albeit alleged) diagram and the (badly translated version of) article I really do have safety concerns. The forces it appears to be utilising are the same forces which have sent wheels flying off in the past. To my mind that is just too many movable parts in places with colossal amounts of energy going through them, just think about the amount of punishment these are going to get over a race distance which will only be compounded at tracks like Monaco, Valencia, Australia and Singapore. I may be overly paranoid in advance but would you want extra moving parts at the wheel end of your suspension?

However, should my concerns prove unfounded you still raise good points there BentAnat. I can only think that it's got to be far cleverer than we can come up with to be effective (using some fancy new progressive compression hydraulic fluid to dampen it or something equally bizarre)
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 10:18   #109
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Somehow I imagine they've come up against and solved all of your concerns before running it on a car in the real world, especially with a young driver in the hot seat.

Looks like a good system to my eyes, but somehow my brain says "Seems so simple, how has no-one else thought of doing it that way?" in retrospect.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 10:32   #110
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On the other hand, I CAN see it be worth a good bit on really bumpy circuits like Monaco... especially the slower ones, where the front wing doesn't play a huge role.
After all, this thing essentially tightens up suspension under braking, and then loosens it again at full throttle, meaning suspension setups can be made a bit softer, thus absorbing bumps (like the tricky old-to-new transistion at Silverstone) a bit better...
Time will tell, and I am expecting all leading teams (as I said - possible exception is RBR) to at least test it in Jerez.

And yes, Krikkit - they probably soved 90% of those issues already...
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 11:05   #111
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I think their main objective is to maintain front wing height and reduce aero fluctuation at the critical braking point. As you pointed out above, at the hardest braking phase, if the aero is more stable the driver will have more confidence in the car, allowing them to be a bit more aggressive.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 11:37   #112
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As expected, Ferrari have also been working on a similar system according to Stefano.
Quote:
"What you are talking about, is more related to having stability under braking," explained Domenicali. "It is a system that I know there have been some documents in writing between the FIA and the teams.

"We are waiting for the final confirmation if this kind of devices will be acceptable or not. But for sure we are looking around these sorts of devices to see if they contribute to a performance. But we need to wait and see what will be the reaction to the FIA on that."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96971
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 12:38   #113
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It's not going well for Kubica

Robert Kubica breaks right leg in accident

EDIT: Read before posting fail _
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 18:04   #114
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It does make you wonder if he can break it that easily from a fall like that what would happen to it if he's involved in a serious crash at f1 speeds.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 18:38   #115
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Originally Posted by Showerhead View Post
It does make you wonder if he can break it that easily from a fall like that what would happen to it if he's involved in a serious crash at f1 speeds.
Ohh hes had his fair share of F1 crashes, most notable would be canada '07


Hes just been really unlucky imo.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 19:01   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat View Post
'scuse the double post, but while discussing this with a mate, the following considerations came up regarding the trick suspension:

More stability under braking means a more linear brake progression, which makes threshold braking easier.
That in turn inspires confidence (together with the car being stable), leading to a possibly smoother racing line into the corners and later braking, while at the same time preserving tyres. This is a major consideration, IMHO.

The next consideration is the following:
Assuming (and I know what assumption is) that this thing responds ina set way to brake input (i.e. "at 90% of brake force, raise nose by 1mm"), this thing has a potential weakness:
As the car gets lighter, as tyre compounds change (knowing that a large part of an F1 car's suspension is in the tyres), the dipping and raising characteristics change. More weight shifting around means it dips and raises more.
Higher acceleration and braking forces means it dips and raises more.
So let's compare the early race to the late one:
+150kg, option tyre: Acceleration and braking is up from the primes, but weight and the softer compound means that this is the part of the race where the dipping under braking is the biggest issue.
Now let's assume that the car travels 50-100km/h in 1 second under full acceleration, the trick suspension offsets the forces (or part thereof) by ,say, 1mm, across .5 seconds.

Now let's look at the same thing later in the race:
car is +15kg, option tyre. The car accelerates better, brakes better, and the dipping is only made worse by the softer tyre.
Now it accelerates 50-100km/h in .8 seconds, and the trick suspension still offsets that by 1mm across .5 seconds, where really it should be offsetting that by .5mm normally (because weight is less), and another .5mm under braking/acceleration, but in less time.

The front wing has the advantage (in this case... stability wise I dare not comment on) that it's speed based. Higher acceleration means it pushes the car lower quicker. It also deals with gradual acceleration.

I might be completely wrong here, but unless this thing is way more tricked out than it seems to me (i.e. brake and throttle controlled, and weight sensors), it might be very close between this and the front wing...
First, it doesn't affect acceleration.

I wouldn't claim to understand it, but in Lotus' words, it is reactive. The force it harvests is the torque generated from braking, and braking performance varies over the race. Perhaps a description of an anatomy of lock-up will help. Locking tends to happen at the end of braking because the car has lost it's inertia (through braking), and the driver hasn't backed off the brake force enough. ie the binding force of the brake pads to disc becomes greater than the turning force of the wheel (the friction to ground, the components; grip, weight (total downward force), inertia).

I get this in cars, but with downforce and the lightness - I'm in the woods. You're deffo right that the car will dive more with different load/grip, but this is matched by the differing amounts of brake torque produced under those conditions. edit: As a braking phase occurs, there will initially be high torque, decreasing as speed is reduced, and at a guess, going to not much at locking. So maybe we will see whenever gross-jeans and Raikonen locking the car will scrap the f wing on the ground :/

Throbbi got me thinking that to make the most of it you'll need to really stamp on the peddle, it'll be like having a little sponge between the master cylinder and the pedal. This replacing the normal 'gentle and fast depression', if you want I could shows what that means. A few more moving parts doesn't bother me, hydraulics are immensely powerful, and there are so many things that coulds goes wrongs anyways.

Oh and good news - Gary Anderson is joining the BBC TV team, I will be looking forward to whatever he might be doing. And bad news - James Allen is going to the Radio 5 team. What happened to Maurice Hamilton?
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Old 13th Jan 2012, 10:32   #117
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You're right - if the device works only on the brakes, it has 0-impact on acceleration. Though it would make logical sense to do the opposite under acceleration.

I reckon the device doesn't actually adjust ride height, but firms up the suspension under braking. I think it's mislabelled by the media.

The biggest "dip" of the nose happens at the moment when the driver gets off the accelerator and onto the brakes. That's when balance shifts from rear to front, causing the nose to dip. As the forwards momentum decreases, so does the dipping.
To offset this (and offer benefit int he race), it would make sense to stiffen the suspension under braking (thus reducing nose-dive), and lossening it up again under acceleration.

Stiffer suspension is what you want under braking and on turn-in, especially in the nose. With less mass shifting forward (or the extent to which it shifts changed), the rear wheels stay on the ground better, meaning less oversteer.
Softer suspension is beneficial especially on bumpy surfaces. One look at Lewis in FP1 at Silverstone (i think it was in 2010) shows the issue: hit the kerb and the wheels lift off that equals loss of front grip=understeer=something the driver needs to correct with either slowing down or power... both not ideal.

Ride-height is VERy complex to control during the race, and would need more than just brake-connection to handle properly. Changing front suspension stiffness under braking makes sense to me, and is easier to do.
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Old 13th Jan 2012, 15:22   #118
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So what I think it is about is emulating stiff car setup.
AT&T Williams is now just Williams alastor, contract ran out at the end of the year. They are looking for a new title sponsor, their other driver won't have anything to do with that now .

edit: don't you just hate those self-quoter's.
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Old 13th Jan 2012, 17:08   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13eightyfour View Post
Ohh hes had his fair share of F1 crashes, most notable would be canada '07


Hes just been really unlucky imo.
Yes but that's before the rally crash which now appears to have lets his leg in a far weaker condition now. He's certainly due a break. (no pun intended)
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Old 13th Jan 2012, 17:40   #120
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AT&T Williams is now just Williams alastor, contract ran out at the end of the year. They are looking for a new title sponsor, their other driver won't have anything to do with that now .

edit: don't you just hate those self-quoter's.
True, edited OP to suit. Who are we betting on then, T-Mobile?
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