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Old 5th Mar 2012, 20:44   #1
StingLikeABee
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WTF is this forum coming to? Awesome discussions on life, the universe & everything!

I may have only been a member for a relatively short time, when compared to the regulars here. Having said that, I have been a lurker for much longer, and enjoyed the serious discussions. That was until recently.

The current situation between Nexxo and Dwarver makes me wonder what the hell is going on. It's like a bloody childish tit for tat, with Dwarver pushing Nexxo's buttons, and vice versa. Both parties need to grow up a little. The temporary banning of Dwarver may be justified, but I'm not so sure it was absolutely necessary. The subsequent tit for tat between the two on the public forums was not needed either. Nexxo could have PM'ed Dwarver to try and resolve the dispute in private, and to try and keep it off the forums. I'm sure Dwarver would have been much more receptive had Nexxo done so.


On another note, Dwarver has been pulled down and frequently ridiculed for poor grammar, the inability to articulate his opinions (to the high degree seemingly required here), with quite a few members being involved. I believe that some of the comments may be justified, especially concerning Dwarver's silly posts, but there are others where the tone is obviously derogatory. This is something I dislike on any forum, especially when mob mentality comes into play.

The correction of someone's grammar in posts is something that I find infuriating and I don't understand why people feel it necessary to do this. I highly suspect it's somewhat of a superiority complex at play.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 20:58   #2
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I'll allow Nexxo to retort, however let me just say - I find it difficult to stomach some of Dwarfer's posts and opinions. That in itself is not justification for a ban/infraction, but when it's taken too far and becomes abusive to individuals or groups then it has to be dealt with.
He has been warned on several occasions, never the less, chooses to ignore and break the rules anyway.

Sometimes a public "telling off" is required, not just for the purpose of informing the infractor, but to inform the wider membership of the boundaries.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:03   #3
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I disagree with Dwarfers temp bans, he should be issued with a permanent one but Nexxo does try to encourage proper debate and I feel this is why he is only giving temp bans for the timebeing.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:07   #4
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I don't think anything Dwarfer's done, except for his occasional lapses into personal attacks, deserve a ban. He's very loud, outspoken, has extremely offensive beliefs on some subjects and voices them loudly, and isn't very good at debating. None of that is against the forum rules.

I think the correct course of action, if you find his style of discussion (or lack of any style of discussion) grating, is to just not enter into discussions with him. That's my policy if I'm finding somebody annoying. We can't just ban people because they irritate us - only if they're deliberately setting out to irritate us, i.e. trolling, and I don't think Dwarfer is doing that at all. I think he's just honestly expressing his beliefs. I have no patience for them or the way he does it, nor do a lot of people, but that doesn't mean he loses his right to.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:07   #5
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It has made me leave the SD section for the time being, he is involved in every forum and only seems to be looking for bitching match not a serious and logical debate.

I like the spelling and grammar correction, if people used proper spelling more often in threads then they may make their point clearer. I pay more attention to people that can express themselves clearly, I like to imagine having a conversation with the person and if their post contains bad spelling and grammar then I probably wouldn't want to have a conversation with them!

People correct my grammar and spelling frequently and I take it on-board and try to learn from my mistakes. Say that this is "just"a forum isn't really an argument (I know you aren't saying this but some do in response to correction posts".
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:08   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant View Post
I don't think anything Dwarfer's done, except for his occasional lapses into personal attacks, deserve a ban. He's very loud, outspoken, has extremely offensive beliefs on some subjects and voices them loudly, and isn't very good at debating. None of that is against the forum rules.

I think the correct course of action, if you find his style of discussion (or lack of any style of discussion) grating, is to just not enter into discussions with him. That's my policy if I'm finding somebody annoying. We can't just ban people because they irritate us - only if they're deliberately setting out to irritate us, i.e. trolling, and I don't think Dwarfer is doing that at all. I think he's just honestly expressing his beliefs. I have no patience for them or the way he does it, nor do a lot of people, but that doesn't mean he loses his right to.
Trouble is that he takes over the SD forum whenever he is allowed back on and drives other users away from it.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:11   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longweight View Post
Trouble is that he takes over the SD forum whenever he is allowed back on and drives other users away from it.
True, but even when he bombs an existing thread created by somebody else, we're all free to just not respond to his posts if we find them unhelpful or annoying. We're not obliged to follow up his argumentative banter, and we've only ourselves to blame if we do.

Franky, I quite like that Dwarfer's honest and open on the forums, even if the results are exhasperating and unsavoury, and I don't like the idea that we might start only tolerating certain kinds of attitude or belief on here.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:19   #8
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If he debated, and it was an actual debate, even if it were an offensive opinion, that would be one thing, and the ban would be construed as an oppression of freedom of speech. However, he often abuses other forum members in his post, as well as simply blasting people for not sharing his views and generally abusing the conventions of debate and free speech. While freedom of speech often means one has to hear things that you do not agree with, it doesn't extend to abusive language.

Also, another thing to remember-this isn't a democracy. We agree to the decisions of the moderators by continuing to post here-the only real way to disagree in principle is to leave the forum.

Back to modding-I've already been through 40 feet of sleeving today.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:23   #9
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StingLikeABee: I see your point, but if you feel that moderation disputes should be settled in private, then why raise this specific issue in public?

The issue with Dwarfer is not his opinions: he can express them freely. It's that he uses SD as a soap box and not to debate, and he flames people for disagreeing with him. I moved one of his thread to GD, where he can just say his piece and not have to engage in debate if he wants, but he got annoyed about that. He wanted it back in Serious Discussion. But then he wouldn't discuss. We tried to encourage him by answering his points seriously, but he'd just retort with insults or non-sequitors ("cool story bro!").

Personally I would much prefer if people simply ignored him than us having to intervene, but they won't. Some members got annoyed by him; others gave him rep for calling people names, which just encouraged his behaviour. If he will simply not engage in any discussion but fly off the handle when you dare to challenge his views, what makes you think he will listen to a private, polite but firm chat about his netiquette backstage?

I doubt that you would tolerate his behaviour amongst your circle of friends. If he has become the butt of people's ire, it's because his behaviour has attracted it.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:27   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant View Post
Franky, I quite like that Dwarfer's honest and open on the forums, even if the results are exhasperating and unsavoury, and I don't like the idea that we might start only tolerating certain kinds of attitude or belief on here.
Being open and honest is appreciated here. Perhaps I'm not seeing the same thing as you, but I do not see anyone being banned solely for expressing a contrary attitude. Nexxo was very clear with Dwarfer throughout several posts; the problem was not Dwarfer's opinion, but his lack of engaging in actual discussion in the Serious Discussion forum. Too often Dwarfer would start a thread that included a quote from an article and a brief rant, if it included the rant at all.

When challenged on his opinion, too often Dwarfer would reply with "Cool story, bro" or some other equally vacuous response.

Again - to be clear - Dwarfer was not banned because he was honest. Nor was he banned because he held a different opinion. He was banned because he refused to participate in a serious discussion, despite several warnings.

Edit: Bah, ninja'd by others. I take too long to type, apparently.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:29   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant View Post
I don't think anything Dwarfer's done, except for his occasional lapses into personal attacks, deserve a ban. He's very loud, outspoken, has extremely offensive beliefs on some subjects and voices them loudly, and isn't very good at debating. None of that is against the forum rules.

I think the correct course of action, if you find his style of discussion (or lack of any style of discussion) grating, is to just not enter into discussions with him. That's my policy if I'm finding somebody annoying. We can't just ban people because they irritate us - only if they're deliberately setting out to irritate us, i.e. trolling, and I don't think Dwarfer is doing that at all. I think he's just honestly expressing his beliefs. I have no patience for them or the way he does it, nor do a lot of people, but that doesn't mean he loses his right to.
I agree that the content of his posts doesn't deserve a ban, but do feel that some sort of punishment is needed for his frequent misuse of thread creation and disregard for the rules of Serious Discussion. Posters are routinely warned and threads are routinely closed for not clearly initiating a discussion. Dwarfer himself has been warned for creating such threads multiple times but has clearly ignored his warnings. Furthermore, the nature of SD requires that subsequent posts in threads be held to a certain standard and continue discussion. He has frequently made posts that have done neither and has been warned for them, yet continues to post in the same manner. Even if ignored he's liable to continue making such threads and posts which degrade the quality of SD.

Edit: A little late as well. This is what happens when you eat and post!
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:33   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longweight View Post

I like the spelling and grammar correction, if people used proper spelling more often in threads then they may make their point clearer. I pay more attention to people that can express themselves clearly, I like to imagine having a conversation with the person and if their post contains bad spelling and grammar then I probably wouldn't want to have a conversation with them!
It really doesn't bother me and i certainly wouldn't go round correcting peoples grammar and spelling, i do believe most people have a basic level of intelligence so would be able to decipher an ineligible post.

grammar nazis are the longest running joke on the interweb.

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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:38   #13
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 21:59   #14
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Dwarfer deserves his temp ban in my opinion.

He forwards an opinion in the serious discussion thread, which, yes, he usually does badly, with poor grammar and an ill thought out argument - but that's not the problem with him. The problem is that he isn't there to facilitate discussion at all, he simply voices his own opinion (which is usually pretty offensive), and then flames anyone that disagrees.

Now there are many on the forums that forward an opinion and then disagree with other points of view (myself and Carrie have had a fair share of debates for example), the difference is that most forum users appreciate and value the thoughts of others, and will discuss them and there differing opinions. Now this does sometimes get heated, but a heated debate is oh so very different from simply posting an outlandish opinion and then ignoring or berating everyone else's opinions.

Dwarfer is entitled to his views, he's entitled to post them, he's entitled to do so in a thoughtless manner - but if he wants to use the serious discussion thread, then he has to be open to discussion.



Oh and when you consider that Dwarfers staple response to a well put togther and thoughtful argument that runs counter to his own ranting is usually:

Quote:
Cool story bro!
Then you can see why he gets banned.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 22:05   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingLikeABee View Post
On another note, Dwarver has been pulled down and frequently ridiculed for poor grammar, the inability to articulate his opinions (to the high degree seemingly required here), with quite a few members being involved. I believe that some of the comments may be justified, especially concerning Dwarver's silly posts, but there are others where the tone is obviously derogatory. This is something I dislike on any forum, especially when mob mentality comes into play.

The correction of someone's grammar in posts is something that I find infuriating and I don't understand why people feel it necessary to do this. I highly suspect it's somewhat of a superiority complex at play.
My opinion on this ^^^ is well documented, having had a "discussion" at length with Spec in another thread, seriously taking it off-topic. But in essence I entirely agree with you on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by longweight View Post
I like the spelling and grammar correction, if people used proper spelling more often in threads then they may make their point clearer. I pay more attention to people that can express themselves clearly, I like to imagine having a conversation with the person and if their post contains bad spelling and grammar then I probably wouldn't want to have a conversation with them!

People correct my grammar and spelling frequently and I take it on-board and try to learn from my mistakes. Say that this is "just"a forum isn't really an argument (I know you aren't saying this but some do in response to correction posts".
The problem with this ^^^ is that:

1) it is the height of ill manners to draw to someone's attention their failings or inadequacies in this respect, assuming, of course, they have not engaged you as their English language tutor;
2) regardless of what you might say it does smack of superiority in the way that it is most often used on bit-tech;
3) it's the height of hyprocrisy to do so when one's own replies are riddled with errors such as (and I do this only to illustrate my point):

Quote:
I like the spelling and grammar correction, if people used proper spelling more often in threads then they may make their point clearer.
Quote:
I pay more attention to people that can express themselves clearly,
Quote:
I like to imagine having a conversation with the person and if their post contains bad spelling and grammar then I probably wouldn't want to have a conversation with them - oh just about everything is wrong with this; refer to point 2!
Whilst you may appreciate your grammar, spelling and even speech being corrected as a way of improving your own deficiencies not everyone else does. An analogy for you: for argument's sake let's say you like chocolate ice cream but your best friend does not. Would you force your friend to eat of your ice cream, simply because you enjoyed it? If you did, what sort of friend would that make you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant View Post
True, but even when he bombs an existing thread created by somebody else, we're all free to just not respond to his posts if we find them unhelpful or annoying. We're not obliged to follow up his argumentative banter, and we've only ourselves to blame if we do.
This ^^^. We are all free to simply ignore his posts. It should be as simple as that.

It is not, however for one very simple reason. I learned (by a written wrap on the knuckles) that the Serious Forum is not treated like other forums on bit-tech. I was "told" if I wanted to post there I had to be prepared to "back-up" my position or point of view with supporting evidence and argue my case lest I risk not being taken seriously, in which case I shouldn't post there. Whilst I appreciate that to sensibly discuss and debate matters that is true, it seems to be an unwritten requirement I have yet to find documented in the rules of bit-tech.

Edit: Having said that, if Dwarfer's warned by the mods not to do something, and will receive a ban if he continues, that is their prerogative to do so.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 22:14   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
Posters are routinely warned and threads are routinely closed for not clearly initiating a discussion. Dwarfer himself has been warned for creating such threads multiple times but has clearly ignored his warnings. Furthermore, the nature of SD requires that subsequent posts in threads be held to a certain standard and continue discussion. He has frequently made posts that have done neither and has been warned for them, yet continues to post in the same manner. Even if ignored he's liable to continue making such threads and posts which degrade the quality of SD.
A good point, here and made by others above. If it's on this basis, I guess I can see the rationale for banning him. I'm just an alarmist about free speech censorship: it's happening/happened everywhere else, I fear it spreading to bit-tech too

But he's still just one guy, so to answer the OP's question: the forum isn't coming to anything, it's still good - it just has a bad apple. I suppose he'll eventually push his luck too far and go the same was as Major et al.

edit -
and while we're on it, I agree with Carrie about grammar corrections. Correcting people usually comes off as rude, tangential and condescending, especially online. If it's a mistake they repeatedly make where it matters, like they're quoting from their school essay or letter to their M.P. and there are mistakes within it, it makes sense to correct people; also, if the mistake actually makes what they're saying ambiguous or difficult to understand, it makes sense to clear it up. Otherwise, it's just not relevant, and feels hostile and petty.

edit edit -
in the spirit of things:

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Old 5th Mar 2012, 22:46   #17
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Originally Posted by Carrie View Post
1) it is the height of ill manners to draw to someone's attention their failings or inadequacies in this respect, assuming, of course, they have not engaged you as their English language tutor;
2) regardless of what you might say it does smack of superiority in the way that it is most often used on bit-tech;
I agree with you, and I've never called Dwarfer --or anybody else-- on their grammar. My thinking is: if the facts or logic are sound, the point has been made.

However Dwarfer has brought any rudeness onto his own head by his own rude behaviour. That does not excuse it, but that's how people generally react.

The SD forum is for serious discussion, as the name says. It is not a place for just voicing your opinion; it is a place for exploring it and testing its logical and factual robustness. It is a dialogue. For general banter we have the GD forum (again, clue is in the name). If he just wants to have his say and not debate it, I have no problem with Dwarfer voicing his opinion there (we even have a "RANT" tag to accommodate him) but we all know that members will react and that the thread will burst into flames before it reaches the bottom of the page. Guess who then has to douse the flames.

It is easy to say that moderators should just be a bit more wise, tolerant and discreet with the guy. It's equally easy to say that members should just ignore him and not give him rep for flaming other members. But the fact of the matter is that there is only one person responsible for Dwarfer's behaviour, and that is Dwarfer himself.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 22:53   #18
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The problem with this ^^^ is that:

1) it is the height of ill manners to draw to someone's attention their failings or inadequacies in this respect, assuming, of course, they have not engaged you as their English language tutor;
2) regardless of what you might say it does smack of superiority in the way that it is most often used on bit-tech;
3) it's the height of hyprocrisy to do so when one's own replies are riddled with errors such as (and I do this only to illustrate my point):

Whilst you may appreciate your grammar, spelling and even speech being corrected as a way of improving your own deficiencies not everyone else does. An analogy for you: for argument's sake let's say you like chocolate ice cream but your best friend does not. Would you force your friend to eat of your ice cream, simply because you enjoyed it? If you did, what sort of friend would that make you?
There are certainly many corrections where people take things too far for polite conversation and almost all can be handled in PMs if someone really wants to improve another's grammar or spelling. Calling someone out for something like using "to" when they should have used "too" is pretty ridiculous. It's also a little unsettling to see corrections being used as a way to attack others as seems to happen from time to time.

However, the English language is fairly cut and dry. It has a million different unique rules and situations, but said rules do exist and people can be objectively wrong according to the rules of the language (in a sense, the ice cream can be good or bad, regardless of personal taste). As long as we're using it as the standard language to communicate it's not unreasonable to expect posters to be capable of using it. Serious errors can cloud the meaning of a post, correcting them is good for both the poster (to ensure that their intentions are accurately portrayed) and any readers.

Quote:
it seems to be an unwritten requirement I have yet to find documented in the rules of bit-tech.
Despite having mentioned requirements of posting in SD I'm not sure if I can remember ever seeing the rules posted anywhere, that's a good point to bring up. Perhaps it can be changed with a rules sticky thread? I know stickies are usually ignored but perhaps if it's the only one people will read it, and at the very least it's a good solid thing for mods to refer to.
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 22:55   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
I agree with you, and I've never called Dwarfer --or anybody else-- on their grammar. My thinking is: if the facts or logic are sound, the point has been made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo View Post
However Dwarfer has brought any rudeness onto his own head by his own rude behaviour. That does not excuse it, but that's how people generally react.
But it's perfectly possible to be extremely rude to someone whilst being terribly polite

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
Serious errors can cloud the meaning of a post, correcting them is good for both the poster (to ensure that their intentions are accurately portrayed) and any readers.
Should that be the case, it requires clarification of their meaning or stating one's own assumptions on the meaning as part of the reply thereby, politely, giving the poster the opportunity to clarify their meaning. It is not a reason to say "ha there's two o's in too "
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Old 5th Mar 2012, 23:07   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrie View Post
Whilst I appreciate that to sensibly discuss and debate matters that is true, it seems to be an unwritten requirement I have yet to find documented in the rules of bit-tech.
Seriously though, do we need to spell everything out in the rules? Or are we all reasonably mature (young) adults of above-average intelligence who sort of know what polite and rational discourse is about and can use their common sense?
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