WTF is this forum coming to? Awesome discussions on life, the universe & everything!

[Nexxo]

That's not how it works. Faith offers a philosophy from which to approach and make sense of life, the universe & everything. It offers explanation and guidance, not favours.

[KayinBlack]

Faith is not a get out of jail free card. It's a way to see the world that makes a lot of the chaos make sense. Don't you think I would love to not die from the disease I have? Or for my wife to not have two clotting factor conditions, or my boy to have been born with all his brain and not paralyzed? I understand that faith is both less and more than just getting your way. When one has faith, they choose to allow God's will to overrule their will-which makes a lot of people unhappy at the start, because they want full control of their fate.

But it's more than that, too. My wife and I feel that our boy was given to us because we had requisite backgrounds (hers is special education, mine is adaptive technologies) that will make us the best people to care for him. Every person of faith that we meet (and there are a lot when sick children are involved) says the exact same thing. When we get together with other parents with genetic conditions, or cancer, or horrible, disfiguring accidents, do you know what I hear? I hear parents talking about the blessing that those children bring to their lives, and the examples that they set for their parents. Do I hear requests that God allow this to pass them by? Absolutely. I pray with a bunch of people that want it to happen, and I sit with a bunch whose child lost the fight. When those children pass on, I don't hear about how it was unfair, I hear about how the child is at rest. My wife and I live in fear of that day ourselves, but we would know that he was a very happy little boy, and that he loved his mom and dad a lot. He wouldn't be in so much pain (forty some-odd surgeries, and he's not yet 16 months old.) It hurts me to even type that, but when you want what's best for a person, sometimes holding on is a disservice. If God sees fit to keep him here, we're going to love him and do everything in our power to give him the best life he can have.

Do miracles happen? Indubitably. Things happen for which science has no explanation. They may find one, they may not. I lived after being dead for three and a half minutes, which might not seem like a long time, but when you've been hit by a car, die and then wake back up doctors flip their ****. I didn't see anything on the other side, but that doesn't mean I don't believe there might be something more. Maybe I wasn't there long enough. But there are other miracles-spontaneous remission of cancer, wrecks that should have turned people into a greasy red smear on the pavement they walk away from without a scratch, gunshots that should have been instantly fatal that somehow turn in the body and miss vital organs. The proof of miracles is a strong one for the existence of God, and one I see few if any counterproofs to.

So why, if God is capable of these things, do we suffer so? I think it's a multifaceted answer. One can be found in the account of Job. Job was a good man, he took good care of his kids and his servants, was faithful to his wife, he dealt honestly with those he traded with. More importantly, he was a righteous man before God, one who God spoke of as being a shining example of what he wanted in a man. So why would God choose to let Satan afflict him so? I think part of it was because he knew Job would be able to handle it. And in doing so, Job would grow as an individual. We don't learn much from happiness. It doesn't take any effort if life is a breeze. And we never reach our true potential except by working hard at it. Pain is a teacher, folks. And it teaches a lot of important lessons. Job went through losing everything, and he never doubted God-he had learned to recognize that bad things happen not because God just likes to see us squirm. But his faith wasn't grown-up enough: Job believed it WAS his fault. It was only through suffering that God could teach the lesson that no, no it's not. Suffering happens sometimes as a consequence of sin, but sometimes it just happens. And if you turn from God just because something bad happened, your faith wasn't worth much. Job stood fast, even though everyone around him (except one) told him to curse God and die. He knew there was a reason, even if he didn't now what it was. And there was one, though God Himself had to show up for Job to get it.

When Job asked God why, what did He reply? "If you could do what I do, you'd understand why I did what I did." That's no answer, right? Nah. We've all heard it before. Remember being a kid, and asking why you couldn't do something? "No, you don't want to do that." Yes I do, I want to lick that light socket. It might taste grape." You parent isn't putting you off, your parent is saying that I have knowledge here you don't-and I don't want you getting that knowledge the possibly fatal way. Curiosity killed the cat for a reason, you know, and satisfaction rarely if ever brought it back. A parent doesn't feel themselves beholden to always say why, but sometimes the answer would be mystifying to us at that age anyway. Anyone here expect a toddler to know about AC current in the walls? B*tch that's magic in them holes in the wall. I want me some magic too! But we tell them no, and if it doesn't stop them (seldom does) we punish our child, not because we don't want them to be inquisitive but because their actions will hurt worse than that punishment.

The existence of suffering as a proof of the lack of the existence of God is a poor one. With out amazing free will, we think of new ways to hurt each other all the time. And while those actions may ostensibly be under the banner of a faith, that doesn't mean that all the people of that faith would condone his/her actions. In fact, it might separate them from the rest of the faith, but it doesn't mean they'll stop using a label that just doesn't fit any more. The worst reason for why bad things happen is because people tend to do bad things. And when those people do bad things, most of the time it expands suddenly, violently and all over the place, to quote John Taylor.

Bad things happen to good people. That's an immutable fact. What isn't immutable is how we can respond to it. Some will respond with grace, and we'll look at them and hope to be like them one day. Some will just pass it on down the line, giving like they felt they've gotten. God may or may not have a plan for it, but we are the ultimate deciders of how it affects us.

I need to get back to mopping the floor. Groenendales shed immensely. It sticks to our floor.

[LennyRhys]

Originally Posted by SuicideNeil

Hardly, my questions have just been dismissed & ignored

You haven't actually asked many questions lately; your posts have generally been peppered with the same anti-Christian vitriol that characterised your entrance into this debate. If you engage people in a respectful and dignified manner - which has been repeatedly asked of you, and which you have repeatedly refused to do - you would find that people will more likely hit "Reply" than "Add to my Ingore List."

Originally Posted by SuicideNeil

would you think it odd or disappointing if he wasn't there for you in a time of need

I know Kayin covered your question thoroughly, but the question presupposes something about God: that he is there at our beckon call, and that he is somehow obliged to help those who love him when they ask for it. Sounds lovely, but it's not a biblical idea.

One general comment on the subject of charitable work - the minister today said "Most Christians are spectators in a world full of need." It's uncomfortably true; as Kayin says, when many people who claim affiliation with a faith behave in a particular way, it does not necessarily mean that they are behaving in accordance with what that faith teaches.

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

A very brief question for Kayin. The bible has stories of Jesus healing blindness and other diseases. Why just cure it for that individual and not for everyone?

[SuicideNeil]

Originally Posted by LennyRhys

I know Kayin covered your question thoroughly, but the question presupposes something about God: that he is there at our beckon call, and that he is somehow obliged to help those who love him when they ask for it. Sounds lovely, but it's not a biblical idea.

Then what purpose ( is ) prayer?

[LennyRhys]

Originally Posted by Da_Rude_Baboon

A very brief question for Kayin. The bible has stories of Jesus healing blindness and other diseases. Why just cure it for that individual and not for everyone?

I know you asked this of Kayin but I'll attempt an answer first. Jesus' miracles of healing were performed for the same reason as all of his other miracles: as proof that he was who he claimed to be - the all-powerful God of Abraham. Jesus healed many sick people whilst he was alive, but he was also very clear that healing people's physical ailments was not his primary goal, but a valuable demonstration of his power, authority and compassion.

Originally Posted by SuicideNeil

Then what purpose ( is ) prayer?

An extremely difficult question to answer succinctly for an unbeliever. The best example of prayer is that of Jesus himself, who asked God (his eternal Father) for something but fully understandood that it may not be granted to him and that he would accept God's will no matter what answer he was given. Jesus basically pleaded with God to deliver him from the crucifixion, but it was God's will for Jesus to suffer and die. So from Jesus' example alone we can determine that prayer is not a simple case of "Ask for it, get it" - we may ask God for something, but it's his prerogative to give it or withold it.

The common misconception of prayer is that it is along the lines of "hey God, can I please have..."; that's a very self-focused prayer which is ultimately about the person praying. For those of us who are believers, prayer does a number of things: it is a way for us to speak to God, to revere him, thank him, and ask for his provision; and it is also a means by which our faith in God is strengthened. We are encouraged to pray daily, for our own benefit and for that of others.

[Nexxo]

The secular psychological view:

Originally Posted by Da_Rude_Baboon

A very brief question for Kayin. The bible has stories of Jesus healing blindness and other diseases. Why just cure it for that individual and not for everyone?

Story telling dynamics. Jesus was a cool guy, so people told each other about him. As stories travelled people embellished to emphasise his messianic coolness and added miracles to the account. He already had considerable rep with the people who came to hear him speak, so I suspect that there was a placebo effect also. Think of people who report getting healed in Baptist church services.

Personally I think the miracles are just story telling garnish, and not nearly as important as what he preached.

Originally Posted by SuicideNeil

Then what purpose ( is ) prayer?

Prayer is a form of meditation and self-therapy. It is good to talk. It allows you to sort out your thoughts and feelings (verbalising is a powerful cognitive organising strategy), and it may give you an inner peace that allows you to re-examine your situation without the interference of strong emotion. Again, it works when you expect it to work.

[KayinBlack]

I'm honestly not sure. What I did notice, however, was an interesting statement made in another story unrelated to healing at all. In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, after they both had died, the rich man implores God to send Lazarus to his brothers in order to convince them to repent. The reply? We already told them to repent. They've hardened their hearts so much that even if someone came back from the dead they wouldn't change.

I find that interesting on multiple levels. First, it opens up the idea that nobody is all bad or all good, but that people are made up of multiple layers. While the rich man had no care for the plight of Lazarus on earth, he does care about his family. Second, it's a warning about making up your mind that nothing could ever change you. But most important to this, it mentions a state that people can exist in where they could get to the point that no wonder could be enough to convince them of anything. So why don't some people get healed? Dunno, but there is the distinct possibility that healing one person wouldn't do much besides heal that one person (and may not even function as a wakeup call.) When Jesus healed the blind man that the Pharisees and Saducees were arguing over, He didn't just heal him, he showed His power over the physical world AND He reminded them that sin was not why bad things happened to people sometimes. Bad things happen to good people, and not simply as a form of punishment.

I'm often curious as to why myself. There is the concept that adversity causes us to grow. If God wandered about healing all our stubbed toes, we'd never quit running into things in the dark. There's the concept of simply a person's time to go. I don't think any person here would stretch out a life that they knew would be nothing but unmitigated suffering. But there is the concept of God does what God will, and I'm not sure that we know enough of all the factors surrounding a decision to gainsay it.

That sounds like a simple answer, no? Well, sometimes I don't have a better answer for you guys. Not everything is known. And even though I've studied for many years I don't know everything. Some things are deliberately hidden. And to tell you I know some things would be a lie, and I try not to do that. At the end of the day, I'm a human, attempting to place the motives of a deity. I will occasionally come up with nothing. I respect my own limitations here.

So I've told you what I know on the subject. Though I'll leave you with something to think on-what if He does, but it's not what we expect to see? What about all the people who come through changed, but still able to enjoy life, to seize the day and beat its head against the floor to get everything out of it they can? Who is healed, the one that gets over the disease and never acts any better, or the one who changes forever, both mentally and physically? I saw a man with no arms paint with his mouth. Another, with his feet. We with two arms may never attempt to do anything like what they do (I don't specifically mean painting here) but here they are, accepting their limitations and moving forward and really living. Who's the sick one then?

[stonedsurd]

Originally Posted by LennyRhys

The best example of prayer is that of Jesus himself, who asked God (his eternal Father) for something but fully understandood that it may not be granted to him and that he would accept God's will no matter what answer he was given. Jesus basically pleaded with God to deliver him from the crucifixion, but it was God's will for Jesus to suffer and die. So from Jesus' example alone we can determine that prayer is not a simple case of "Ask for it, get it" - we may ask God for something, but it's his prerogative to give it or withold it.

Somewhat tangential - could you (or Kayin, or anyone) explain the concept of the Holy Trinity? I don't get how Jesus, God (the invisible sky-man) and the Holy Ghost (whose purpose I'm still a little shaky on) are all the same thing. And how Jesus is his own son and is asking himself to save himself from a crucifixion which he set into motion.

This is a serious question. I have no background on Christianity save the little I got from shirty fundies at Uni. I was born and raised in India.

If this has been addressed elsewhere in the thread, please feel free to tell me to go f**k myself

(Already tried search)

[thehippoz]

Originally Posted by Da_Rude_Baboon

A very brief question for Kayin. The bible has stories of Jesus healing blindness and other diseases. Why just cure it for that individual and not for everyone?

I can take a stab at that.. it's about suffering.. if everyone was given a perfect life without suffering- would they live to their potential? probably not

see the whole premise is that god is not some brat child who throws people into hell on a whim.. or grabs his crotch and walks around yelling this is my house! my rules! that's what atheists want you to believe.. truth is he doesn't like to cast people in- we all have free will.. we were created that way and our purpose is to love him and each other.. not accidents, buttsex monkeys.. whatever

if you ask for separation from god your whole life, he will give it to you I don't know what it's like, but I'm sure you probably don't want to be there.. george forman said he died after a fight and had a little preview- it's why he is a christian man today.. that doesn't mean he's any different.. like he still eats sausages lol but he's forgiven all those who he hated in his life and became very successful both in business and his own personal life- while giving back to his community in service

suffering is the key I believe.. you don't paper over the fact it exists as a christian- but like scientists, you don't jump to conclusions either after you hit the first bump in your work

like assuming the unexplained is unexplainable.. it's the same with people who study the bible.. I personally like questions like why did christianity spread early on?

because of their kindness and service to others, that attracted people in, they were just good, honest people.. that's why it spread.. of course you can't forget the inquisition which all happened later with a bunch of people drunk on power the church wielded in those times (probably homosexual too who knows ) from what I know in history- all of the gas chamber guys and hitlers personal bodyguards were homosexuals.. they were butch though- they actually despised femmes.. not saying gays today can be compared but just as an example of some stuff you've probably never learned in school and came to the conclusion only people who commit great atrocities are people of faith..

that's bs.. truth is we live in a pretty good time.. there's still a lot to do though- missionary work is not carried out by athiests.. don't view agnostics as atheists- I just see them as the average, thinking person.. now atheists have turned off their brain though- I mean there's no clones, found no life on other planets..

interesting though nexxos take on paul.. he was an extreme persecutor and therefore bent in the opposite way.. it made me think for a minute.. love the profession he's in because he comes up with good points.. the one about the twins got me thinking too

[thehippoz]

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

Somewhat tangential - could you (or Kayin, or anyone) explain the concept of the Holy Trinity? I don't get how Jesus, God (the invisible sky-man) and the Holy Ghost (whose purpose I'm still a little shaky on) are all the same thing. And how Jesus is his own son and is asking himself to save himself from a crucifixion which he set into motion.

This is a serious question. I have no background on Christianity save the little I got from shirty fundies at Uni. I was born and raised in India.

If this has been addressed elsewhere in the thread, please feel free to tell me to go f**k myself

(Already tried search)

I'm going to leave that to kayin and lenny.. I don't think anyone can fully understand the trinity

*edit yeah.. talked to my sister- she said don't even try lol that little kid who died said the holy spirit was blue though.. now the monkey- I can only speculate on that too

[Nexxo]

Originally Posted by thehippoz

because of their kindness and service to others, that attracted people in, they were just good, honest people.. that's why it spread.. of course you can't forget the inquisition which all happened later with a bunch of people drunk on power the church wielded in those times (probably homosexual too who knows ) from what I know in history- all of the gas chamber guys and hitlers personal bodyguards were homosexuals.. they were butch though- they actually despised femmes.. not saying gays today can be compared but just as an example of some stuff you've probably never learned in school and came to the conclusion only people who commit great atrocities are people of faith..

So: the Spanish Inquisition: gays. Nazi's: gays. Here's another psychological take:

Cameron, 59, a former psychologist based in Colorado Springs, issues a stream of data often used by anti-gay activists: that gays are far more likely than straights to molest children, that gays are more likely to commit crimes as mundane as tax evasion or shoplifting, and so on. “We’re kind of the wellspring of most of the statistics about the gay lifestyle.” Cameron says. Cameron, who in the 1980s called for quarantining gays to prevent the spread of AIDS, has been attacked not only by gay-rights groups but also by psychologists, psychiatrists and sociologists, who have engaged in decades long war with Cameron. Like many of his allies, Cameron believes that, if left unchecked, homosexuality will destroy America like God did Sodom. “Untrammeled homosexuality can take over and destroy a social system,” says Cameron. “If you isolate sexuality as something solely for one’s own personal amusement, and all you want is the most satisfying orgasm you can get- and that is what homosexuality seems to be-then homosexuality seems too powerful to resist. The evidence is that men do a better job on men and women on women, if all you are looking for is orgasm.” So powerful is the allure of gays, Cameron believes, that if society approves that gay people, more and more heterosexuals will be inexorably drawn into homosexuality. “I’m convinced that lesbians are particularly good seducers,” says Cameron. “People in homosexuality are incredibly evangelical,” he adds, sounding evangelical himself. “It’s pure sexuality. It’s almost like pure heroin. It’s such a rush. They are committed in almost a religious way. And they’ll take enormous risks, do anything.” He says that for married men and women, gay sex would be irresistible. “Martial sex tends toward the boring end,” he points out. “Generally, it doesn’t deliver the kind of sheer sexual pleasure that homosexual sex does” So, Cameron believes, within a few generations homosexuality would be come the dominant form of sexual behavior.

Have you got something to tell us about yourself, thehippoz?

Originally Posted by thehippoz

that's bs.. truth is we live in a pretty good time.. there's still a lot to do though- missionary work is not carried out by athiests.

I think I gave you a long list of atheist charity organisations earlier.

[LennyRhys]

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

Somewhat tangential - could you (or Kayin, or anyone) explain the concept of the Holy Trinity? I don't get how Jesus, God (the invisible sky-man) and the Holy Ghost (whose purpose I'm still a little shaky on) are all the same thing. And how Jesus is his own son and is asking himself to save himself from a crucifixion which he set into motion.

This is a serious question. I have no background on Christianity save the little I got from shirty fundies at Uni. I was born and raised in India.

If this has been addressed elsewhere in the thread, please feel free to tell me to go f**k myself

(Already tried search)

Another difficult question to answer - most Christians don't understand this...

Two crucial things to remember here: 1) God is not physical or corporeal; he is an eternal spirit; and 2) he is a godhead - a being composed of divine essence or substance.

When we talk of the Holy Trinity we talk of the triune godhead that is singular in substance but in which there are three distinct persons (original word "hypostases") - Father, Son and Spirit - all of whom are equally God and who exist eternally in perfect love and perfect unity. We believe that marriage is modelled on the trinity in the sense that in (heterosexual ) marriage there is both unity and diversity.

It's worth noting that not all Christians believe in the trinity. The word "trinity" itself is not a biblical word but was devised by one of the Early Church Fathers called Tertullian. Reformed theology embraces the doctrine of the trinity as wholly biblical.

[thehippoz]

lol hey I don't think like that..

yeah meant missionaries- where they usually go and try and get a few.. like mormons on their bicycles.. they help a lot of people get out of situations while doing it

[Nexxo]

Originally Posted by LennyRhys

Another difficult question to answer - most Christians don't understand this...

Two crucial things to remember here: 1) God is not physical or corporeal; he is an eternal spirit; and 2) he is a godhead - a being composed of divine essence or substance.

When we talk of the Holy Trinity we talk of the triune godhead that is singular in substance but in which there are three distinct persons (original word "hypostases") - Father, Son and Spirit - all of whom are equally God and who exist eternally in perfect love and perfect unity. We believe that marriage is modelled on the trinity in the sense that in (heterosexual ) marriage there is both unity and diversity.

So which part of the Trinity is the woman, and which part of heterosexual marriage represents the third part of the Trinity?

[stonedsurd]

Originally Posted by LennyRhys

Another difficult question to answer - most Christians don't understand this...

Two crucial things to remember here: 1) God is not physical or corporeal; he is an eternal spirit; and 2) he is a godhead - a being composed of divine essence or substance.

When we talk of the Holy Trinity we talk of the triune godhead that is singular in substance but in which there are three distinct persons (original word "hypostases") - Father, Son and Spirit - all of whom are equally God and who exist eternally in perfect love and perfect unity. We believe that marriage is modelled on the trinity in the sense that in (heterosexual ) marriage there is both unity and diversity.

It's worth noting that not all Christians believe in the trinity. The word "trinity" itself is not a biblical word but was devised by one of the Early Church Fathers called Tertullian. Reformed theology embraces the doctrine of the trinity as wholly biblical.

But didn't the singular "godhead" (essence of "god", as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) simply will everything? God willed its own crucifixion and its own appeal for salvation to itself?

Was it all a big morality tale? Something along the lines of "Look, I can ask myself for a favor and still not get what I want. Heck, I can let myself die. TL;DR - don't pray for frivolous sh*t, I'm usually not in the mood." ?

Also, and this bugs me about most monotheistic faiths, why the hell can't god be clear? We're clearly not on the same plane, so why can't he explain it as if to a child? Why all the stories and showbiz?

That's distinctly human, which lends credence to the idea that the divine is simply human fancy. More so than the alternative, anyway.

[LennyRhys]

Originally Posted by Nexxo

So which part of the Trinity is the woman, and which part of heterosexual marriage represents the third part of the Trinity?

Haha, didn't say marriage is an exact representation of God - it can't be, because God isn't human (now, I did say that) The unity of the godhead is represented in the unity of marriage; the plurality and diversity of the godhead is represented in the plurality and diversity of marriage. God is not "male" or "female" as we understand them (sexually/reproductively) - these are biological properties.

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

But didn't the singular "godhead" (essence of "god", as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) simply will everything? God willed its own crucifixion and its own appeal for salvation to itself?

God foreknew everything that would take place, yes, but we don't believe in a distant God who sovereignly winds up the world and lets it run its course; we believe in a God who is in complete control yet whom we can call upon and who intervenes constantly.

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

Also, and this bugs me about most monotheistic faiths, why the hell can't god be clear?

God is abundandtly clear - Jesus died for the world and was raised to life; believe in him and you will be saved. There are things about God that we simply cannot fully comprehend; the common atheist position of "I can't understand it, therefore it must be fancy" is pure arrogance. If we assume that God does exist and is a supreme being as he is described in the Bible, why must he be "clear" and "easy to understand"? Many of the people who want to understand God are those who use his incomprehensibility as an excuse to dismiss him. I have no desire to fully understand God any more than I have a desire to fully understand women - it simply cannot be done.

Originally Posted by stonedsurd

That's distinctly human, which lends credence to the idea that the divine is simply human fancy.

Actually it's quite the opposite - since the Bible teaches that humans are made in God's likeness, it should come as no surprise that there is an inexplicable affinity between humanity and divinity.

[Nexxo]

Originally Posted by LennyRhys

Haha, didn't say marriage is an exact representation of God - it can't be, because God isn't human (now, I did say that) The unity of the godhead is represented in the unity of marriage; the plurality and diversity of the godhead is represented in the plurality and diversity of marriage. God is not "male" or "female" as we understand them (sexually/reproductively) - these are biological properties.

So the whole: "marriage should be between a male and a female" is kind of an arbitrary interpretation of diversity and unity?

The "not understanding women" comment is very enlightening. You seem to have a traditional view on men and women, don't you? No wonder homosexual relationships are a bit of a paradigm shift for you.

[LennyRhys]

Originally Posted by Nexxo

So the whole: "marriage should be between a male and a female" is kind of an arbitrary interpretation of diversity and unity?

Nope - that marriage should be between a male and female is a divine command.

Originally Posted by Nexxo

The "not understanding women" comment is very enlightening. You seem to have a traditional view on men and women, don't you? No wonder homosexual relationships are a bit of a paradigm shift for you.

Explain what a "traditional" view on men and women is! My guess is what you call "traditional" I'll probably call "biblical."

[Nexxo]

Same thing, really.