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Old 20th Jun 2012, 11:37   #1
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Nvidia responds to Torvalds' Linux attack

Nvidia has responded to Linus Torvalds' attack, claiming it fully supports and contributes to Linux.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...nds-torvalds/1
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 13:12   #2
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I wish NVidia would fix the lack of power saving features on the HTC One X. It doesn't switch to the companion core when idling, apparently... still.
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 13:48   #3
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Nvidia should have responded by posting a video of their staff clubbing penguins.

Anyone ever see that ATI power rangers video?
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 19:48   #4
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In other words they still won't provide the support themselves? Also saying it was an "attack" is a little strong. He didn't actively start slagging off Nvidia for no reason, he was asked a question about them and their support, he did go a bit far sticking his middle finger up but as he said, he likes offending people that get offended.
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 01:16   #5
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Love Linus for this, an open honest statement about a company, it's really rather refreshing. Its not like nvidia can stop linux support its on everything now, bar home computers (yes you and i may have it and it may be good but nearly everyone else has windows or a modified bsd os). Back in the day everyone thought open source wouldn't be profitable, but it is, if anything its made companies more flexible and profitable. Hell Red Hat just took $1.13 BILLION!!!!!! Linux is in strong growth so nvidia should do the smart business thing and embrace the growing market. not just support certain parts and starve others.
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 07:22   #6
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I wish Nvidia's response, in terms of support for desktop Linux, had been Jen-Hsun Huang raising his middle finger and giving Linus a "**** you" himself, then announcing they would cease further development.

I admire all Linux (and Linus) have done - not bad for something that started when he was looking for something to do over a Christmas break. (Which, reminds me - how was it Stallman went twenty years without a kernel for the GNU project, then got even more self-righteously douchey about how it's really "GNU/Linux"?) However, Linux, as a desktop platform pisses me off. I recently took a stab at it again, with Mint. After several frustrating days trying to sort out what sort of package I needed for this or that, what finally killed it was not being able to find remote software that would work. I tried every free VNC package I could find. I found a package that allowed usage of RDP, but only the wrong direction - I need to get to Linux from Windows, not the other way around. Finally I gave up, formatted, and installed Windows again. It's telling that they still around 2% marketshare, and don't give me any BS about MS' monopolistic tendencies. People don't use it because it still, 20 years on, is not user-friendly enough.

As I said, though, I admire the reach of Linux - TVs and refrigerators up to CERN (iirc) phones, data centers - you can't deny it's been wildly successful. Still doesn't give the dude license to be an asshole about it.
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 08:27   #7
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Love Linus for this, an open honest statement about a company, it's really rather refreshing. Its not like nvidia can stop linux support its on everything now, bar home computers (yes you and i may have it and it may be good but nearly everyone else has windows or a modified bsd os).
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 10:56   #8
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A good, honest and professional response from Nvidia. It's a shame Linus couldn't have done the same.

WELL DONE NVIDIA
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 11:56   #9
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If Linux users thinkt the drivers are bad now...
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 12:31   #10
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I think this little episode tells you most of what you need to know about the professionalism of the Linux "community", inasmuch as the word is appropriate when you're trying to describe a bunch of teenaged amateurs banging away in the back bedroom who don't even seem to like each other very much, let alone the poor users.
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 12:45   #11
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Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes View Post
I think this little episode tells you most of what you need to know about the professionalism of the Linux "community", inasmuch as the word is appropriate when you're trying to describe a bunch of teenaged amateurs banging away in the back bedroom who don't even seem to like each other very much, let alone the poor users.
Suuure. Teenage amateurs. Back bedrooms. Whatever you say, Phil. Whatever you say.

Do you know what companies *were* founded by teenage amateurs working in college bedrooms and back bedrooms? Microsoft and Apple, respectively.
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 19:14   #12
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Originally Posted by fluxtatic
I wish Nvidia's response, in terms of support for desktop Linux, had been Jen-Hsun Huang raising his middle finger and giving Linus a "**** you" himself, then announcing they would cease further development.
And all the Linux community would be happy with VESA or nouveau.

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Originally Posted by fluxtatic
However, Linux, as a desktop platform pisses me off. I recently took a stab at it again, with Mint. After several frustrating days trying to sort out what sort of package I needed for this or that, what finally killed it was not being able to find remote software that would work. I tried every free VNC package I could find. I found a package that allowed usage of RDP, but only the wrong direction - I need to get to Linux from Windows, not the other way around.
Then maybe you should try using a remote desktop protocol (such as VNC/RFB) that, unlike RDP, isn't a proprietary protocol designed by Microsoft to be as hard a possible to copy.


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I think this little episode tells you most of what you need to know about the professionalism of the Linux "community", inasmuch as the word is appropriate when you're trying to describe a bunch of teenaged amateurs banging away in the back bedroom who don't even seem to like each other very much, let alone the poor users.
Suuure. Teenage amateurs. Back bedrooms. Whatever you say, Phil. Whatever you say.

Do you know what companies *were* founded by teenage amateurs working in college bedrooms and back bedrooms? Microsoft and Apple, respectively.
^ Exactly.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 02:46   #13
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Do you know what companies *were* founded by teenage amateurs working in college bedrooms and back bedrooms? Microsoft and Apple, respectively.
The difference, of course, being that both Microsoft and Apple have produced operating systems that are usable by average humans. Red Hat has been banging on about Linux for very nearly two decades and in my view has still failed to do so.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 03:19   #14
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Do you know what companies *were* founded by teenage amateurs working in college bedrooms and back bedrooms? Microsoft and Apple, respectively.
The difference, of course, being that both Microsoft and Apple have produced operating systems that are usable by average humans. Red Hat has been banging on about Linux for very nearly two decades and in my view has still failed to do so.
GET OUT! *points to door* Red Hat has failed so bad....your right....it's not like they made $1.13 BILLION last year. Oh and what are your views on Windows 8 usability?
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 03:49   #15
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However, Linux, as a desktop platform pisses me off. I recently took a stab at it again, with Mint. After several frustrating days trying to sort out what sort of package I needed for this or that, what finally killed it was not being able to find remote software that would work.
I tried every free VNC package I could find. I found a package that allowed usage of RDP, but only the wrong direction - I need to get to Linux from Windows, not the other way around. Finally I gave up, formatted, and installed Windows again. It's telling that they still around 2% marketshare, and don't give me any BS about MS' monopolistic tendencies. People don't use it because it still, 20 years on, is not user-friendly enough.
Your first mistake is to assume that you need to view your desktop to remotely access it because that's how you do it on Windows. Your second mistake is to assume that it's the only way of doing it. Your third mistake is to use Mint with either Cinnamon or Mate desktop environments, that are Mint project's completely new DE's and have issues with VNC connections. I know, why is it your fault when they have issues? Because your first and second assumptions and because they could have removed VNC capabilities until they're ready, but those are less used and might work with workarounds, and that wouldn't stop anyone who thinks (desktop) Linux = 1 graphical interface bitching that they can't remotely access their machine.

There has been easy and secure way to remotely access your machine since 1995 when SSH was made public to replace telnet and rlogin. It's mainly command line interface because it's fast and you can completely control your remote machine with it. Running GUI on a remote machine is a waste of resources. You can control your machine, transfer files, connect to another machines, do other connection tricks, and even launch a GUI application and view its window on your local machine. Yes, even if you connect from Windows. How would you do that last trick the other way around again? You either buy/install/configure Citrix or you virtualize Windows, because Windows is so user friendly, secure, and efficient.

Then there's other options to remotely manage your machine and/or applications. You can use free or paid apps to use VNC, free or paid apps to set up a terminal server, web interfaces that you get for some software or manage the machine's processes through it. The latest thing is to use Chrome remote desktop extension, which is designed to assist other (less technical) people that have their machines behind a NAT.

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As I said, though, I admire the reach of Linux - TVs and refrigerators up to CERN (iirc) phones, data centers - you can't deny it's been wildly successful.
Not bad. To add to your list: Hollywood (desktops & servers), European car manufacturers (desktops & servers), stock exchanges (servers), US military in subs/UGVs/USVs/UAVs/ground control (desktop, servers, embedded), aviation (desktop, servers, embedded), space exploration (mainly servers & embedded), public administration (desktop & servers), education (desktop & servers), networking gear in consumer and enterprise level (servers, embedded), all sorts of big and small IT companies that make their money by using/developing/selling Linux, and the list goes on.

They didn't give the Millennium Technology Prize for Torvalds just because of 331 million Android devices. Why would they do that?

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Still doesn't give the dude license to be an asshole about it.
Correct. You need to register on Bit-Tech forums for that.

Although, Nvidia had it coming.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 10:06   #16
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The difference, of course, being that both Microsoft and Apple have produced operating systems that are usable by average humans. Red Hat has been banging on about Linux for very nearly two decades and in my view has still failed to do so.
So you're now saying that being a teenage amateur working in a back bedroom *isn't* a problem, and can result in "operating systems that are usable by average humans?" If you're going to argue, pick an argument and stick to it. Which is it to be: Linux is rubbish because it's made by teenage amateurs working in back bedrooms - in which case you're tarring Microsoft and Apple with the same brush - or Linux is rubbish because you don't understand it - in which case I think the set of things you think are rubbish might just be uncountable. Do you understand flight mechanics? I don't, but I don't think they're rubbish - especially when I'm 30,000 feet in the air.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 13:17   #17
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I'm sick of Linux-bashing on these forums.

Each major platform - Mac OS X, Windows & Linux - has it's advantages over the others. To name at least a few examples: in Windows' case, it's enterprise connectivity/compatibility and games; in the case of OS X, it's simplicity and usability for people who've never even so much as looked at a computer before (plus the flexibility of the BSD-like core, for the more technically inclined); Linux may be seen as less user-friendly (though I'd contest that), but it's infinitely more flexible and powerful, and doesn't require the latest and greatest hardware to run it. Too much bloat in your kernel? Recompile it. Don't want all the un-necessary packages and guff? Uninstall them or, better yet, don't install them in the first place. Want to tweak, customise and optimise every single aspect of your OS? Build your own OS from scratch.

None of this makes Linux "better" than the others; by the same rationale the respective advantages of OS X and Windows don't make them "better" than Linux, or even each other. An OS is fundamentally a tool to get something done with your hardware; like any tool, some are better at certain tasks than others. I wouldn't run a DNS server or high-volume web server under Windows, and I wouldn't host an enterprise email or domain server with Linux (well... If it was my choice I would, but in the real world I recognise that there are practicalities to consider such as end-user familiarity, desktop compatibility, ease/cost of maintenance, etc).

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So you're now saying that being a teenage amateur working in a back bedroom *isn't* a problem, and can result in "operating systems that are usable by average humans?" If you're going to argue, pick an argument and stick to it. Which is it to be: Linux is rubbish because it's made by teenage amateurs working in back bedrooms - in which case you're tarring Microsoft and Apple with the same brush - or Linux is rubbish because you don't understand it - in which case I think the set of things you think are rubbish might just be uncountable. Do you understand flight mechanics? I don't, but I don't think they're rubbish - especially when I'm 30,000 feet in the air.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 13:37   #18
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On the slightly tangential subject of low-power hardware... @Gareth: I've just noticed the link in your sig regarding the R-Pi manual... I also notice that Eben Upton is co-author; is this going to be a formal publication by the Foundation?

And forgive me for asking, but... Given the aims/goals of the Foundation, the inevitably open-source nature of the majority of the software that the Pi will run and the fact that there's an awful lot of material already freely available online, do you think it's "wrong" to profit by selling a manual? Especially when the manual is nearly half the cost of the Pi itself - EDIT: Ignore that - I totally misread the price... (That's not a judgement on my part, by the way - I'm not saying that I think it's "wrong", and I'm not implying that there will be any profit made)
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 13:59   #19
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On the slightly tangential subject of low-power hardware... @Gareth: I've just noticed the link in your sig regarding the R-Pi manual... I also notice that Eben Upton is co-author; is this going to be a formal publication by the Foundation?
No, it's published by Wiley & Sons. It's endorsed by the Foundation, but not a product of the Foundation - merely of one of its founding members.

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And forgive me for asking, but... Given the aims/goals of the Foundation, the inevitably open-source nature of the majority of the software that the Pi will run and the fact that there's an awful lot of material already freely available online, do you think it's "wrong" to profit by selling a manual?
Depends whose profit you're talking about. Do I think it's wrong that I make a few pence (and it is a few pence) per copy sold, considering I've spent the best part of two months writing over two hundred pages of content? No, not at all. In fact, I'd be happier if I made more profit - but there we are. Do I think it's wrong that Eben makes a few pence per copy sold? No. It's his project, and the book is an optional extra - you don't need it to use the Pi. If people want it, they can buy it. If they don't, they don't have to - just like all the multifarious add-on boards, cases, pre-flashed SD cards, power bricks and so forth that have appeared.

Do I think it's wrong for Wiley & Sons to make a (far larger) profit from the publication of the book? No. Getting a book made isn't cheap - you should see the list of people involved in the production of this one - and it's a risk: if it doesn't sell, Wiley could be left with a warehouse filled with dead trees. Remember, too, that Farnell and RS make a profit on every Raspberry Pi sold - as does Broadcom.

It's true that some - but not all - of the software the Pi will run is open-source, but remember the saying: free as in speech, not as in beer. Take a look at the number of Linux books on Amazon - are they wrong? Personally, I don't think so. There's a heck of a lot of work goes into a book, and it's right that people are rewarded for that.

But, as you say, this is a bit off-topic.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 14:37   #20
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No, it's published by Wiley & Sons. It's endorsed by the Foundation, but not a product of the Foundation - merely of one of its founding members.

Depends whose profit you're talking about. Do I think it's wrong that I make a few pence (and it is a few pence) per copy sold, considering I've spent the best part of two months writing over two hundred pages of content? No, not at all. In fact, I'd be happier if I made more profit - but there we are. Do I think it's wrong that Eben makes a few pence per copy sold? No. It's his project, and the book is an optional extra - you don't need it to use the Pi. If people want it, they can buy it. If they don't, they don't have to - just like all the multifarious add-on boards, cases, pre-flashed SD cards, power bricks and so forth that have appeared.

Do I think it's wrong for Wiley & Sons to make a (far larger) profit from the publication of the book? No. Getting a book made isn't cheap - you should see the list of people involved in the production of this one - and it's a risk: if it doesn't sell, Wiley could be left with a warehouse filled with dead trees. Remember, too, that Farnell and RS make a profit on every Raspberry Pi sold - as does Broadcom.

It's true that some - but not all - of the software the Pi will run is open-source, but remember the saying: free as in speech, not as in beer. Take a look at the number of Linux books on Amazon - are they wrong? Personally, I don't think so. There's a heck of a lot of work goes into a book, and it's right that people are rewarded for that.

But, as you say, this is a bit off-topic.
Like I said, I wasn't making a judgement call at all; I'm not trying to say that it's wrong to reward someone for their work. The Amazon page gives very little info and it wasn't clear who was actually going to be publishing it. In fact if anything, I'd say that's a bit of a bargain price for a manual released by a major publishing company; I can certainly understand the financial risk involved in their part. Perhaps bringing "open-source" into it was a bit of a misleading characterisation of what I was trying to say; there is indeed nothing wrong with profiting from open source material, provided you adhere to any applicable license.

I guess I'm just coming at it from a different point of view; that of someone who doesn't make his living from putting words to page. I do occasionally write guides, how-to documents, tutorials, etc (maybe not on these forums and not necessarily for the Pi), and some of the posts on my site in the past have bordered on essay-length pieces. I do enjoy it, but I don't consider it something that I would get paid for; in reality I'm probably not really that good at it, and people probably aren't interested in the guff/waffle that I write!

Tangent/musings over ... OT: Nvidia are a pain in the a**e when it comes to supporting Linux, and Linus Torvalds can be a bit of a troll! (Albeit a troll who usually has a good point )
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