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Old 26th Jul 2012, 12:21   #1
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Valve's Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe'

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/20...-catastrophe/1
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 12:31   #2
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I'd definitely switch to Linux if there were good support for games/proper drivers for HW.

I've used Ubuntu before and loved it, obviously it's just not useful for gaming but hopefully...
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 12:43   #3
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yeah but nobody (and im talkin 0.5% of users) are going for linux over win8 its silly to wage war over OS's.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 13:02   #4
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He's right, if that metro nonsense can't be turned off in 8.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 13:09   #5
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I have used Ubuntu, Arch Linux and other a while back, but i end up getting frustrated with the lack of good software to backup the excellence of distros.

- First i have not found yet a good replacement for MS Office specially for their spell check capabilities and formatting options.
- Nvidia drivers are a pain if you develop games also.
- After is the fact that adobe refuses to support linux since i really need photoshop and illustrator since the existent options on linux do not offer the same quality and functionality.
- After is autodesk products such as maya or 3ds, blender isnt quite there and it can be also a pain to get things right.

While these things arent fixed i cant rely on linux to do my daily work, and I have to keep putting up with this ms crap.

Maybe steam should speed development in the linux side and offer a app store for other software.
Maybe building an sdk to bridge windows and linux would be the best way to allow big companies to do the shift to linux and consequently the users.

I found linux good if you only do normal day-to-day tasks, for software development i have to say that if you can put ur development language in eclipse u can have a good workbench for debugging and development.
I havent found other tools like qtcreator kdevelop, etc to be up to scratch with eclipse, visual studio or xcode.

For these reasons i had to pull away from linux. And I believe that until allot things change in the developer side of linux we wont be seeing any better support or any good applications to support the excellency of gnome, kde or the work put on to each distro.

So i think what that this Guy Nebbel is just talking crap. Windows 8 will be just another bad windows version and this will remain unchanged, unfortunately...

Gnome KDE and the guys that put distros together need to understand the need to allow companies to bridge easier their products between ms and linux... Because wine isn't the answer at all.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 13:30   #6
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I think reading this has put the final nail in the coffin for me not to upgrade to windows 8, I hadn't realized at all the MS were making it a more closed system, if I wanted an apple system i'd buy one !

Once again corporate greed destroying everything !
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 13:48   #7
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I have to say... huh?

Steam works fine on 8, in fact better than on 7 with my laptop as the whole OS seems quicker.

The metro UI in no way locks down the system or restricts the way you use it. Its just a glorified start menu, I really dont understand all this fuss.

Linux on the other hand... what is the point in steam running natively when 95% of games use windows-only DirectX?

Dont get what all the complaining is about. 8 is just 7 with a different (but no less functional, even on a desktop) start menu. Talk about a mountain out of a molehill!
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:28   #8
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Well then what's the point of Steam for Mac? Once the structure for distribution is up, you'll start seeing people make games for Linux, as they've started making games to run natively in Mac as well.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:29   #9
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If you believe that Metro is just a glorified start menu then you really haven't been paying attention. Microsoft is betting the farm on Metro. If everything goes as planned software for Windows will be synonymous with Metro apps. The desktop is relegated to legacy status as in "oh by the way, here's the desktop". And where would the only place be to get Metro apps from? Why, the Microsoft Store of course!
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:40   #10
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for all the the people who didn't read the article - METRO is not the reason why 8 is catastrophe, Gabe is talking about the App Store, and honestly I suggest for every metro hater to stop whining about it, I could understand Vista, everything was slow, startup times, wifi issues, networking issues, heck even simple usb transfer issues. but for 8, if you put aside Metro, everything works better if not great, the system is faster, it boots faster, stuffs start faster, compatiblity-wise its 100% backward with 7.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:48   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
And where would the only place be to get Metro apps from? Why, the Microsoft Store of course!
And this what I just don't get about MS's new Metro interface and tying it to the MS Store. How is this NOT an anti-trust issue in the vein of Windows and IE? Does someone need to initiate another complaint with the EU before MS gets it into their thick heads? It is even worse than the previous complaint because MS is tying it to a commercial/for profit service.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:50   #12
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Gabe is no more an industry pundit than anyone else, he might be a visionary (sometimes), but he gets things as wrong as the rest of us.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:53   #13
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I agree with dyzophoria,

Plus, the Start Screen is great. You have more items on the screen, plus you can get information without running programs. It's also customizable. You can make groups, pin folders, adjust everything. And of course, if you don't like too much the switch between the two (BTW, that was the same complain about User Account Control dialog box, which everyone is fine with today), you can pin all your most used programs to the taskbar, as most people do. That was the idea of Windows 7 task bar.

The large icons on the Start Screen makes it a breeze to navigate with a touchpad (which no laptop manufacture except Apple, that are unable to put anything better than an insult to humanity), and you don't need to get pin point accurate with the mouse either, even on high resolution screen. That's the same effect the Windows 7 task bar has. And most people, either pin or have setup their most used programs on the Start Menu... Why? Because it's large icons! Just instead of having 8 to 12 items from it (unless you want the task bar to look strange on your screen and have to travel distances of nothingness to reach basic folders), you have the entire screen. Where you put the most used programs on the left side and the least used one on the right.

Here is mine, on my laptop (so as it's not a gaming laptop, my games are at the right, and few). This picture was taken from my 24inch screen which is what my laptop is connected to, as I am using it as my main OS for work.


Linux is simply.. not a viable option for every day usage for us (I mean here at bit-tech)
-> No proper replacement or alternative applications exists for many programs
-> Program and OS is overly crowded with useless options, making it hard to get things setup
-> Terminal, Terminal, Terminal.. you want to do something advance, in Windows is a click away (even sometimes MacOS too), but Linux... Terminal!
-> You are going to type your user name and password like crazy.. as anything you need to do at advance level, it's not a click away like in Windows with the User Account control... oh no.. it's done via the Terminal typing in your user name and password each time. What a waist of time. The only time you can get away form this, is is the option you are looking for doesn't need the Terminal.
-> No hardware support. The Drivers and manufacture support is greatly lacking in quality, let alone optimizations. Now you CAN get a nice system running on Linux.. but you have to do some digging to ensure that all your computer parts not only have Linux drivers, but the manufacture put at least some kind of effort to do it right.
-> Linux was not designed for everyone.. it was designed for people who seek to do something really specific that you can't do elsewhere, or does it better. Function first, form later. While this is good, you actually want a balance which Windows offers. When you see that we are in 2012 soon 2013, and Linux STILL doesn't have a half descent font rendering engine for it's x-Windows (KDE or Gnome)... you know that their is a problem.
-> Steam on Linux is the same as Steam on Mac... where's the games? Steam won't help get games on Linux. All you are going to have is an easier to find indi titles that works for Linux, and SOME Valve games, that is all.

While I encourage people to try and learn Linux, I don't see it, for OUR needs, to be a good option to take as a main OS. Even if drivers and gaming where not an issue. I would GLADLY cash out lots of money to get Windows license any day. Everyone I know that switch... quickly switched back to Windows.

And let's not mention, no DirectX support. If you think that developers will just switch to OpenGL, I can tell you, because I worked on OpenGL, OpenGL is miles behind DirectX. And I don't mean graphic wise (I mean that too, but in that department, it's not that far off, it's quiet close actually). What I mean is that OpenGL cannot be debugged. That means it's HELL for developers. Something doesn't work properly.. can you trace it? No. Can you see what's going on, on the back? Not unless you have the tools that only Nvidia and AMD engineers have. AMD and Nvidia support for OpenGL is virtually none. Most examples, and developer tools for Nvidia and AMD graphic card are DirectX.

Example:
Nvidia PerKit. A nice little tool to help analyses performance for OpenGL, so that you can optimize to help you find the bug or issue in your shader language. Oh wait.. no Fermi support.. we are in 2012, Kepler is out, and PerKit doesn't support Fermi. Shows you how much they care. But on DirectX side, Holy crap! You have complete analysis tools, for CUDA too, fully embed in Visual Studio.

Talking about Visual Studio, the BEST (and I don't mean: one of the best.. no no no.. their isn't anything close to it, and that is why Microsoft is happily charging super high licensing fees. Which companies don't struggle for a second to acquire the latest version.. it's that good). You don't have under Linux.


Newell is saying this for a simple reason... he is scared that they lose business form it's Steam service. Think about it. If Microsoft only takes 20% fees on apps that sales a lot, instead of 30%. Publishers and developers will simply put their games directly to Windows store, and skip Steam, which charges 30%. So it is in his complete interest that no one buys Windows 8. Plus you'll have XBox integration.

But what Newell doesn't know, is that: you still get more with Steam. You have the social network, the chat system, the in game overlay system, and DRM system. Even if Microsoft puts all it's energy in making something better than Steam.. it would take years before can get to what they are NOW. By then Steam will be far ahead. Also, Steam takes care of everything in term of licensing and process payment and account system for publishers/developers which Windows App Store doesn't. You don't even have a game patch system flexible as Steam one. Example, you are missing DirectX runtime library... the Windows App store won't detect that, download it and install it before running the game, so that you have an easy setup process.

So gamers will still use Steam. The only time I would be in Newell shoes, is if I knew that I had no more ideas to develop Steam.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 14:58   #14
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 15:05   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyzophoria
for all the the people who didn't read the article - METRO is not the reason why 8 is catastrophe, Gabe is talking about the App Store, and honestly I suggest for every metro hater to stop whining about it, I could understand Vista, everything was slow, startup times, wifi issues, networking issues, heck even simple usb transfer issues. but for 8, if you put aside Metro, everything works better if not great, the system is faster, it boots faster, stuffs start faster, compatiblity-wise its 100% backward with 7.
I especially liked this: "...if you put aside Metro...". That's what everyone is complaining about!!

We aren't whining about it being faster. We're whining that all that speed is eaten up by time wasted mucking about with a tablet interface on a desktop. Time lost that you can't get back with a snappier OS.

Why would I need (or want) a touchscreen optimised UI with a 24in monitor? Or multiple monitors? I'll change my opinion of Metro on desktop when Apple comes out with a 20in iPad.
The fact is that I'm not adverse to UI changes. I quite like running Ubuntu+Unity even though all the other bearded folk hate it. But Metro just makes everything painful.

Also, I'd rather work with Vista everyday than W8+Metro. At least Vista can be made liveable. I'd be stuck with Metro.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 15:15   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> No proper replacement or alternative applications exists for many programs
I've never had a problem not finding an application for something. Besides, if it doesn't exist, code it and then it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> Terminal, Terminal, Terminal.. you want to do something advance, in Windows is a click away (even sometimes MacOS too), but Linux... Terminal!
Actually you can do most things without the terminal if you so wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> You are going to type your user name and password like crazy.. as anything you need to do at advance level, it's not a click away like in Windows with the User Account control... oh no.. it's done via the Terminal typing in your user name and password each time. What a waist of time. The only time you can get away form this, is is the option you are looking for doesn't need the Terminal.
a) You never need to type your username
b) If typing your password is such a problem, "sudo -i" makes you root so you only need to type your password once in that terminal session (alternatively login as root and you don't need to type your password at all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> No hardware support. The Drivers and manufacture support is greatly lacking in quality, let alone optimizations. Now you CAN get a nice system running on Linux.. but you have to do some digging to ensure that all your computer parts not only have Linux drivers, but the manufacture put at least some kind of effort to do it right.
AMD's drivers are fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> Steam on Linux is the same as Steam on Mac... where's the games? Steam won't help get games on Linux. All you are going to have is an easier to find indi titles that works for Linux, and SOME Valve games, that is all.
You need the distibution system before you can distribute anything. Games will come with time.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 15:27   #17
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See, there's a lot I find explicitly worse about Windows 8, but I wouldn't consider it a catastrophe. I don't think it's so horrible that other companies will crumble because of it. Worst case scenario will be the same as the Vista scenario - if people don't like it, they will just stick with the previous version instead.


I personally feel games are the what linux is weakest in, and thanks to indie developers that is becoming less of an issue. With more games, AMD and Nvidia are inclined to improve their video drivers, which are the next worst thing about linux. Third worst would be considered user friendliness, which is not really a focus of linux (as a whole). Depending on how you set it up, linux can actually be easier than windows or mac, but it isn't meant for the general public and never has been. Distributions like ubuntu target the general public but that hasn't been very successful yet, and it's because of... well... the general public. The problem I see all the time with linux (even from earlier posts) is people EXPECT linux to do everything that they feel comfortable with in windows, whether that's changing a setting in a certain manner or running a program that is only on windows. People have overall seem to have accepted that Macs are inteded to operate differently and won't run everything they're used to, or even in the same way. What's so different about linux? Sometimes it may LOOK the same but appearance is nothing.

I personally haven't installed wine on my linux setups in over 3 years and the 1 and only reason why I would install it (if I cared to) is for the occasional game I play. Instead, I just dual boot with windows and dumb it down as much as I can so games will perform best on my relatively mediocre hardware.

If Gabe can successfully get enough games working on linux, I won't ever need to consider installing wine ever again.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 15:33   #18
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I do hope that Windows 8 bombs and thus Linux grows in popularity. Considering Linux's limited resources, its various distros are still relatively good quality. If developers did support Linux more, it could be a great boom for it.
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 15:40   #19
GoodBytes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCBuilderSven View Post
I've never had a problem not finding an application for something. Besides, if it doesn't exist, code it and then it does.
Ok, find me a program for Linux, that is like Office and have a half decent spell checker and some kind of grammar check to start off.

Find me a program that support a service that I can play and download unlimited music legally, and that isn't MOD's, XM's, IT's formats (use VLC to play them, if you have no idea what I am talking about: http://modarchive.org/index.php?requ...ctions_uploads. I kinda prefer 16-bit music over... this. Oh and it's not chip tune.. you wish it was.)

How about a program that allows me to purchase and sync song from one place.. to let's say.. my iPod or iPhone.

How about a developer IDE and compiler, like Visual Studio that is competable?

And I can go on and on...

Yes, I am definitely going to program those. All alone... in a few weeks. More reason why I don't like the Linux community. Every time I ask something, nicely too.. I get the same old: "Here is the source code, have fun!". Linux community wants to be popular, but goes all snobbish on everyone, pushing them away... Ubuntu community is the only one, so far that I had a good experience, that they have people that care and are actually helpful. Good for them. No wonder, this distribution of Linux is so popular.


Quote:
Actually you can do most things without the terminal if you so wish

a) You never need to type your username
b) If typing your password is such a problem, "sudo -i" makes you root so you only need to type your password once in that terminal session (alternatively login as root and you don't need to type your password at all).
Most isn't all.
Also, I should not need this at all.


Quote:
AMD's drivers are fine.
Fine isn't great. Nvidia's are the same.

Quote:
You need the distibution system before you can distribute anything. Games will come with time.
Doesn't Linux already have a marketplace system, which is praised by many, and even said to be first, before Apple. What happened to that?
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Old 26th Jul 2012, 15:44   #20
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Most (all) of your examples are readily available, they might not have some of the polish that MS applies but then MS applies an awful lot more cost one way or the other.

Whist Visual studio is free (as in beer) your effectively locked into a MS ecosystem which means your software is not free.

Ultimately Linux is different that won't suit every one but to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your requirements exactly is a little short sighted, we all (most of us...) dismissed iPods/iPhones/iPads but some one is happy enough to make apple bigger than exxon.
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